Improved Knockdown

Fire Monkey · Post by **Fire Monkey** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 7:50 pm

Has improved knockdown been removed from the game? I have tried several times on a level generator to make a fighter/barbarian type character with knockdown and improved knockdown but regardless of what level I get to (I know you need a BAB of +7) Improved Knockdown never comes up as an option to take. Has it been removed from the game or am I doing something wrong? If it has been removed from the game how come monks can still get it and there are still NPC?s in Avlis who use the feat against you?

Aloro · Post by **Aloro** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 8:49 pm

Improved Knockdown is still in the game.

However, Bioware in their wisdom added a "hidden" requirement of Int 13 IIRC. I have no freakin' idea why.

- Aloro

eNTrOpY · Post by **eNTrOpY** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 9:51 pm

Obivously you must be smarter than average to knock some one on there ass. Retarded Bioware

Ykirhs · Post by **Ykirhs** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 9:31 pm

eNTrOpY wrote:Obivously you must be smarter than average to knock some one on there ass. Retarded Bioware

Before we start throwing around nasty terms, keep in mind that Knockdown is the Bioware implementation of Trip Attacks.
Knockdown does NOT have any requirements, Improved Knockdown on the other hand does... why? Because Improved has you doing it WELL.
Sheesh... manual exemptions and errors are a new phenom? ymmv

Jordicus · Post by **Jordicus** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 9:50 pm

well, that actually points to the true reasoning then.

If Knockdown is Bioware's implementation of Trip, then Improved Knockdown would be the implementation of Improved Trip, which has a prerequisite of Int 13+ (and Expertise, which will finally show up in SoU)

PigLickJF · Post by **PigLickJF** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 1:49 am

True, although I would still say intelligence was not the correct attribute to use. Wisdom would be more fitting, sice it covers observation skills, which I think would be more useful when trying to trip someone than good recall and reasoning abilities...

PigLick

Melakin Skywieder · Post by **Melakin Skywieder** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 2:52 am

Apparently no one from Bioware had a large older brother. Not necessarily smarter but a hell of a lot stronger....
knockdown = your older brother pushing you to the ground
improved knockdown = you older brother pushing you to the ground so hard it knocks the wind out of you.

Been on both sides of the fence

Ykirhs · Post by **Ykirhs** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 3:15 am

Well, maybe they'll change it with 3.5... this whole Discipline thing makes all bets iffy, but admittedly also much easier to implement.

The pre-req is actually a holdover from the Weapon Expertise anyways, redundantly listed with imp.trip. ;P (But I'm not a nerd;))

As for the folks using the "bigger brother" example, keep in mind that IF you already are a size or three larger than your target, you get a bonus. Improved lets you hit as if you were one size class larger... or it removes the penalty to your attack, depending on how you look at it. How this is accomplished depends on your character.

Aloro · Post by **Aloro** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 4:05 am

If they put Discipline in 3.5, I'll storm WOTC myself and burn the fucking building down. That skill is a lame fucking idea for PnP.

- Aloro

Fire Monkey · Post by **Fire Monkey** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 5:40 pm

Thanks for the explanation guys. At last I can understand why this thing has not been working. I guess requiring an Int 13+ means that a lot of fighter types with Knockdown will not have been able to take the improved version. Sounds interesting....... Those disarming type characters can also be specialised in Knockdown. That could be a leathal combination. Knock 'em down, Disarm them then kill them with their own wepaons

.

Ykirhs · Post by **Ykirhs** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 7:09 pm

Fire Monkey wrote: Knock 'em down, Disarm them then kill them with their own wepaons .

Doesn't everyone do that?

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 8:56 pm

The real problem with knockdown is that with size differences it is possible for someone to hit a smaller target easier if knockdown is used then just swinging at them. This implimentation is broken. The +-4 per size catogory should only effect the disapline roll, not the to-hit.

Why do I say this? Because if an ogre were to use improved knockdown on a halfling they would get a +8 to hit. Size difference in 3E is supposed to make larger creatures have a harder time attacking smallers ones at a +-1 rate per size, which is included. This feat completely reverses and breaks that concept.

I call any DM to give all dragons improved knockdown, and use it everytime they swing.

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 10:10 pm

WrathOG777 wrote:I call any DM to give all dragons improved knockdown, and use it everytime they swing.

Don't they already have it? And even if they don't, another +4 on top of what they already have isn't going to matter all that much.

ashzz · Post by **ashzz** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 10:36 pm

WrathOG777 wrote:The real problem with knockdown is that with size differences it is possible for someone to hit a smaller target easier if knockdown is used then just swinging at them. This implimentation is broken. The +-4 per size catogory should only effect the disapline roll, not the to-hit.

Why do I say this? Because if an ogre were to use improved knockdown on a halfling they would get a +8 to hit. Size difference in 3E is supposed to make larger creatures have a harder time attacking smallers ones at a +-1 rate per size, which is included. This feat completely reverses and breaks that concept.

I call any DM to give all dragons improved knockdown, and use it everytime they swing.

yur just pissy because baal falls on his ass a lot!

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 7:21 am

It is caped at +4? The reverse does not seem true. I could of swore I have hade -8 to hit using knockdown.

What I am saying is a +12 to hit on a dragon would realy make them as feared as they should be.
med -> med +0
large -> med +4
huge -> med +8
garganuan -> med +12

Or, did you mean... they have knockdown for sure, and use it every swing... the extra +4 from getting improved would not be a big deal.

Baal dies a whole lot, but for some strange reason it is not because of knockdown. I just think knockdown is horibly broken. No feat should offer large things +4 to hit per size catagory. The only PC that could realy take advantage of this are the half-ogres. And when is the last time you met a half ogre with a 13+ int?

Spell Singer · Post by **Spell Singer** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 11:00 am

there is no cap, it is dependant on the size catagory and Dragons when run by the DM do use, and even when not as I recall from my last death by dragon. As does the AI for other creatures that have it from what I have seen of Balors and Celestial Avengers in action. And let us not forget the double hammer dwarves with improved knockdown.

Allow me to thank bioware for their infinite wisdom in not making Discipline a paladin skill...if they want to correct a major error in the SoU they could simply change that little detail and I would be much happier.

I have on more than one occasion seen creatures resist knockdown so the other thing is that a fair number of them floating about Avlis have Discipline as a skill.

j5hale3 · Post by **j5hale3** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 11:23 am

just a quick note before going to work.

The knockdown to hit rolls are supposed to be easier because of the action itself. take the simplest case: plain old shield bash. you don't really need to get through the armor you just need to apply the right amount of force to knock someone down.

Gotta go!

Best regards,

Fire Monkey · Post by **Fire Monkey** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 4:33 pm

Wrath,
I think this is relevant to what you are saying.... I think in NWN (not sure about 3rd ed.) knockdown only works against a foe 1 size category bigger or smaller than you. I guess that is because gaints would find it tough to knockdown a halfling as either they wouldn't be able to hit them or if they did they would squash them like a bug rather than trip them over.

Brick · Post by **Brick** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 6:20 pm

Actually, I believe that if you are larger, you got +4, if you are smaller, you get -4. All Improved Knockdown does is move you up a size category.

Ykirhs · Post by **Ykirhs** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 10:29 pm

Fire Monkey wrote:Wrath,
I think this is relevant to what you are saying.... I think in NWN (not sure about 3rd ed.) knockdown only works against a foe 1 size category bigger or smaller than you. I guess that is because gaints would find it tough to knockdown a halfling as either they wouldn't be able to hit them or if they did they would squash them like a bug rather than trip them over.

I think it's a problem with Graphics not indicating the intent of the implementation... I THINK. Likely it IS easier for a Giant Whatnot to knockdown a smaller creature, tail-sweep anyone? Then the small thing stays blasted still to get squashed...
As the Manual (Sucha s it is) Says: "A character can only knockdown an opponent that is one size category larger, the same size, or smaller than they are."

It is not the same as a trip-attack... just something like a trip-attack.

engelhar · Post by **engelhar** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 1:46 am

Along the lines of what Spellsinger said, why don't monks get discipline as a class skill?

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 4:54 am

monks are much to stict and orderly to have disapline. Hours of meditation, studying techniques, practiceing the same moves hundreds of times a day... no self control, I tell you.

Post by **Orleron** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 5:06 pm

If it were up to me, knockdown, imp knockdown, and discipline would be removed from the game entirely. They are way unbalanced.

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 5:23 pm

WrathOG777 wrote:Or, did you mean... they have knockdown for sure, and use it every swing... the extra +4 from getting improved would not be a big deal.

Pretty much yeah. I know dragons have knock down. I once made a little mod put a dragon in and fought it, just because I was borded and Avlis was down or something.

The dragon uses knockdown, on nearly every attack, my PC spent half the fight on his ass. But being a fighter I have a high disc skill, so I was able to deal.

But giving a dragon improved knockdown, or another 4 points, really doesn't matter much.

That +12 is added to the dragons attack bonus, and attack roll.

For those who don't know, knockdown works like this...

I use knock down, I get my total attack roll plus any size mod, vs the targets skill roll.

PigLickJF · Post by **PigLickJF** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 5:26 pm

The knockdowns could be removed by giving them impossible prereqs in the 2da file, couldn't they?

PigLick