Knockdown

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:24 pm

I'm trying to increase my knowledge about the knockdown feat.

How long is a person knocked down for? One round? Varies?

What can a knocked down person do? Cast spells? Only those without somatic components or stilled? Drink potions? Use healing kits?

Anything else to know about it?

Rhissaerk Jalesh · Post by **Rhissaerk Jalesh** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:28 pm

They are knocked down for one round, they are counted as flatfooted, they lose any dex/dodge bonus to AC, and they cannot do anything at all.

Hope that helps. *smiles*

Fuzz · Post by **Fuzz** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:29 pm

knocked down for a round, but they getup at the start of the next round. So suppose you knock someone down at the end of one of NWN's rounds, (On, say, your third attack) they will getup pretty quickly, as you automatically getup as soon as the next round starts. Thus it's in your best interest to KD at the start of a round to maximize the amount of time they're on the ground. It's also best to do that because your AB is highest on your first attack, so the penalty isn't that bad.

And no, you can't use any spells or feats while knocked down, though you used to be able to toggle modes like Stealth, Detect, Expertise, etc. Dunno if you can still do this, but it used to be a big problem with HiPS since people could HiPS as soon as they were knocked down, and thus break combat to buy themselves time. Pretty sure that's fixed now, though. Using Expertise while knocke over would be perfectly fair, though, I'd think... you fall over, but you're still blocking? Dunno if that even still works... was several patches back the last time I checked.

Rhissaerk Jalesh · Post by **Rhissaerk Jalesh** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:33 pm

The AI still uses HiPS when knocked down. But I'm unsure if PC's can do it.

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:34 pm

Doesn't it take a round to get into expertise mode? In which case, you'd get up again before switching into expertise mode, right?

Moredo · Post by **Moredo** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:35 pm

If they can, it's pretty much the lamest thing ever they can do.

Rhissaerk Jalesh · Post by **Rhissaerk Jalesh** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:40 pm

Expertise only 'turns on' at the beginning of the round, so I think you'd stand up when you switched, yes.

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:42 pm

Actually, I think it's pretty lame that you can't do anything while on your back. It's not a bad defensive position, and can be a good (though not ideal, of course) offensive position if not fighting with a weapon. Also, I don't see why you couldn't use wands, rods, or potions.

edit: and spells without somatic components!

Rhissaerk Jalesh · Post by **Rhissaerk Jalesh** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:43 pm

I agree with you there, you should be able to do somthing. In PnP you certainly can. But, alas, NWN has it's own set of often quirky rules.

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:45 pm

Rhissaerk Jalesh wrote:I agree with you there, you should be able to do somthing. In PnP you certainly can. But, alas, NWN has it's own set of often quirky rules.

I guess it's not so bad, since you get right back up. But the problem with that is that you can get up, be knocked down again, get up, be knocked down again, etc., etc., ad nauseum.

Could changes be made to allow characters to do certain things while knocked down? Or is that one of those "hard-coded" things that can't be messed with?

Fuzz · Post by **Fuzz** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:47 pm

Hard-coded.

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:48 pm

Drat.

korak · Post by **korak** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:48 pm

I would like to see people that are knocked down have a -6 to hit and -6 to AC or something. Not being able to do anything really bites if you are the victim of that feat.

Rhissaerk Jalesh · Post by **Rhissaerk Jalesh** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:49 pm

It's possible to 'get out' of a KD chain if you run away, I've had people frequently escape me, and I've escaped it myself. But yeah, shame it's hard coded.

Grunt · Post by **Grunt** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:54 pm

Korak wrote:I would like to see people that are knocked down have a -6 to hit and -6 to AC or something. Not being able to do anything really bites if you are the victim of that feat.

Doesn't bite any more than timestop, confusion, paralysis, being dazed...

There's a good chance to resist knockdown, all it requires is decent discipline.

Nob · Post by **Nob** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:56 pm

Grunt wrote:
Korak wrote:I would like to see people that are knocked down have a -6 to hit and -6 to AC or something. Not being able to do anything really bites if you are the victim of that feat.
Doesn't bite any more than timestop, confusion, paralysis, being dazed...

There's a good chance to resist knockdown, all it requires is decent discipline.

Can a mage cast timestop/confusion/daze/colorspray 5 times/round and chain them?

No? Didn't think so.

Talwin Hawkins · Post by **Talwin Hawkins** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:01 pm

You cant hips when Kded. what happens is you hips before they hit you, but nwn isnt that quick, so they carry on with the KD even if your stealthed, so you get knocked down AFTER you Hips.

Rhissaerk Jalesh · Post by **Rhissaerk Jalesh** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:05 pm

No, but none of those can 'miss', either, and Timestop always works.

*shrugs* Everything has advantages and disadvantages.

Good to know Talwin. The AI still cheats though. *chuckles*

Aeveras · Post by **Aeveras** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:21 pm

Korak wrote:I would like to see people that are knocked down have a -6 to hit and -6 to AC or something. Not being able to do anything really bites if you are the victim of that feat.

That's actually pretty close to the official D&D rules:

- Prone creatures can still attack with a -4 penalty.
- All melee characters get a +4 bonus to hit against a prone creature.
- All ranged characters take a -4 penalty to hit against a prone creature.

- Aeveras

Grunt · Post by **Grunt** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:22 pm

Nob wrote:
Grunt wrote:
Korak wrote:I would like to see people that are knocked down have a -6 to hit and -6 to AC or something. Not being able to do anything really bites if you are the victim of that feat.
Doesn't bite any more than timestop, confusion, paralysis, being dazed...

There's a good chance to resist knockdown, all it requires is decent discipline.
Can a mage cast timestop/confusion/daze/colorspray 5 times/round and chain them?

No? Didn't think so.

Did I SAY that they could? No? Didn't think so.

My reply was in response to "not being able to do anything". When timestop is cast...I can't do anything. When confused, I can't do anything unless you count the engine attacking my own party members, which I have no control over... when paralyzed, I can't do anything. When dazed... I can walk around but can't fight.

Fuzz · Post by **Fuzz** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:31 pm

Grunt wins.

Mages seem to always be the first to bitch about something that compromises their uberness.

Yeah, I said it.

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:52 pm

Aeveras wrote:
Korak wrote:I would like to see people that are knocked down have a -6 to hit and -6 to AC or something. Not being able to do anything really bites if you are the victim of that feat.
That's actually pretty close to the official D&D rules:

- Prone creatures can still attack with a -4 penalty.
- All melee characters get a +4 bonus to hit against a prone creature.
- All ranged characters take a -4 penalty to hit against a prone creature.

Too bad Bioware made it "can't attack" instead "-4 penalty." Grr.

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:55 pm

Fuzz wrote:Grunt wins.

Mages seem to always be the first to bitch about something that compromises their uberness.

Yeah, I said it.

Well, it would be odd if non-mages were the first to complain about something that compromises the abilities of mages. Presumably fighters would be the first to complain about something that compromises fighter abilites, rogues would be the first to complain about something that compromises rogue abilities, and so on.

*shrugs*

Anyway, how about trying to avoid turning this thread into yet another thread bitching about something? I wanted info. I've got it. If people want to discuss what they'd like to see, let them. Apparently no changes could be made anyway, so why worry about it? No reason for combative remarks.

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:03 pm

Rhissaerk Jalesh wrote:No, but none of those can 'miss', either, and Timestop always works.

What are the "those" that can't miss? Timestop always works (unless interrupted, like any spell, right?), but isn't it part of the gentleman's agreement not to use offensive spells against opponents while they are timestopped? Maybe that's just in mage tournaments. I'll have to check. (edit: I checked. Only the bigby's spell and missile storms are not used.)

The Bigby spell that knocks down isn't used in CvC per the gentleman's agreement (and, from what I understand, for good reason, since, unlike the feat, it doesn't last just one round).

Also, a difference between spamming knockdown and spamming similar spells is that, unlike knockdown, the spells can't be used infinitely many times.

slave_of_emotions · Post by **slave_of_emotions** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:14 pm

Nob wrote:
Grunt wrote:
Korak wrote:I would like to see people that are knocked down have a -6 to hit and -6 to AC or something. Not being able to do anything really bites if you are the victim of that feat.
Doesn't bite any more than timestop, confusion, paralysis, being dazed...

There's a good chance to resist knockdown, all it requires is decent discipline.
Can a mage cast timestop/confusion/daze/colorspray 5 times/round and chain them?

No? Didn't think so.

And what for ? once a mage casts timestop a duel is over.

If someone is playing a pure mage and lets a fighter get close to him then its his own fault.