Hide in Plain Sight

[Vanor]

You said they would need to take a 5 foot step in PnP right?

No I said they could take a 5 foot step. You don't need to do anything to dissengage from combat. There is nothing I've seen in PnP rules that state you need to do anything special to disengage in combat.

The folks that actualy leave someones threatened area before engageing HIPS are doing things correctly. The folks that are using HIPS while still actively getting attacked by their opponent in melee are exploiting.

There is nothing that states in any way, you need to step away from melee to activate HiPS. If you have seen such a thing please quote it here and provide a source. Otherwise that is nothing more then an opinion, which is no more valid then anyone elses opinion.

You can take a potion, cast a spell, change a weapon, ect... These are all actions, and no different then using HiPS, or any other ablity.

however when you add in the bug with the 4-5 second delay before the opposing spot/listen skills kick in, then it could be exploited.

Which to be completely honest, do we know this actually exists? I'm not saying it doesn't, just that I don't know it does either.

[Jordicus]

however when you add in the bug with the 4-5 second delay before the opposing spot/listen skills kick in, then it could be exploited.

Which to be completely honest, do we know this actually exists? I'm not saying it doesn't, just that I don't know it does either.

a number of people have tested it and I will do it myself tonight.

if PC A's Hide/Move Silent is low and PC B's Spot/Listen is very high, then PC B should always be able to see PC A, regardless of whether PC A is a Shadowdancer or not. However, if PC A as a shadowdancer can effectively dissappear for 4-5 secs before you spot them, then there is a definite bug.

[Titanium Dragon]

HIPS seems to be quite useable while In Combat.

According to others, this isn't true. They have to dissengage from combat to triger HiPS.

If you were to go off of PnP rules, HiPS is a move equilvent action, so it would be completely possible to attack once, then use HiPS, in the same round. In fact, depending on the intitive rolls, a SD could do this without ever getting hit.

If they win intitive (or as we called it in one PnP group fish heads), they could attack once, with a sneak attack. Take a 5ft step, HiPS, then next round sneak attack again. With the NPC never getting an attack in, depending on it's ablity to figure out where the PC is of course.

Regarding the light cantrip -

The light cantrip has a range of touch. That means you can only cast it on someone you physically touch, and would require a touch attack. Neither of these are true in NWN.

Also light causes the object touched to light up, not the whole person. So if you touched someone, then some part of them would be lit up, not the whole person. By default this would be their shirt or armor. Which could be covered over by a cloak.

Vanor, wouldn't hiding be a miscellaneous standard action, as opposed to a move-equivalent one? In that case, the only way you should be able to hide would be to give up your standard action rather than your move one.

Also, consider that NWN is not PnP. In PnP, even if hiding is a move-equivalent action and you use your move-equivalent action to hide in plain sight, they can still try and take a swing at you (with 50% concealment). In NWN you cannot do this. Mages of course can just drop AoE spells right next to them (one reason I love Negative Energy Burst), but classes without that are pretty screwed.

Thank you Jord for going to test this out.

[Vanor]

However, if PC A as a shadowdancer can effectively dissappear for 4-5 secs before you spot them, then there is a definite bug.

Yes if that happens, if for some reason the spot check isn't made for X seconds after HiPS is activated, then there is a bug. Not that we could do much about it.

To test this effectively, you'd need a SD with a minimal hide skill, and another PC with a spot high enough that spotting the SD is 100%. You'd need 20 points higher in spot then the SD would have in hide...

If in that case, they still don't appear instantly, or never fade away, then there is a bug.

[Jordicus]

exactly.... i believe I have seen this happen to me personally, when playtesting the Orc Lair first level... but I can't remember which character I was playtesting with so it could have been that my Spot was low, even though I seriously doubt it..

[WrathOG777]

Supernatural Abilities: Using a supernatural ability is usually a standard action (unless defined otherwise by the ability?s description). Its use cannot be disrupted, does not require concentration, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

According to this, the ability is not instantenious. The description does not define instant.

HIDE (DEX; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY)
Check: Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a ?5 penalty. It?s practically impossible (?20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

******

Withdraw
Withdrawing from melee combat is a full-round action. When you withdraw, you can move up to double your speed. The square you start out in is not considered threatened by any opponent you can see, and therefore visible enemies do not get attacks of opportunity against you when you move from that square. (Invisible enemies still get attacks of opportunity against you, and you can?t withdraw from combat if you?re blinded.) You can?t take a 5-foot step during the same round in which you withdraw.
If, during the process of withdrawing, you move out of a threatened square (other than the one you started in), enemies get attacks of opportunity as normal.
You may not withdraw using a form of movement for which you don?t have a listed speed.
Note that despite the name of this action, you don?t actually have to leave combat entirely.

hehe, forgot to bold the important point here.

[Vanor]

Vanor, wouldn't hiding be a miscellaneous standard action, as opposed to a move-equivalent one?

Yep your right it is a standard action.

Wrath, nothing you list there states you must withdraw from combat to hide. It says it is practically impossible to hide while attacking. But in the cases mentioned, the PC is not attacking, and does in fact disengage from combat prior to using HiPS.

In fact that means that HiPS would in theory work better in PnP because if I have a high enough hide skill, I could in fact hide while attacking.

[Vanor]

A further thought and something I sorta already sugested.

Other then the possible bug, where there is no spot check for X seconds, there is nothing about using HiPS as stated, that could be considered a true explote.

The timing might be slightly off based on PnP, but as was pointed out this is NWN, not PnP. We can't realisticaly control timing to that degree. The fact is, the SD has to disengage from combat somehow prior to them activating HiPS. The fact that they can do this in 1 seconds time doesn't mean it's an explote.

That said however, if SD's want to avoid issues where someone else accuses them of such a thing... Something the team won't deal with. They could simply wait for 2-3 seconds after disengaging from combat before activating HiPS.

I am not saying they need to do this, or even should do this. Just a sugestion for them if they happen to agree that they shouldn't be able to use HiPS 1 sec after disengaging from combat.

Regarding the bug... Sence I highly doubt we can do jack or shit about that... I'd recomend if it's true, that SD's do not act for 4-5 seconds after they engage HiPS, other then perhaps normal movement.

[4x4_Ender]

All i think of while trying to picture someone using this ability is Nightcrawler from X-men 2.

[WrathOG777]

Yep, aside from that -20 penalty, which I donot think NWN uses. And the fact that it should be a standard action (no AoO). Dropping out of combat an instant and hitting HIPS for a sneak attack is hideing while attacking. That is why I put up the withdraw from combat rules to show what exactly would be required to be considered not-attacking.

Note that despite the name of this action, you don?t actually have to leave combat entirely.

In fact, if biounderware had made HIPS a standard action that gave a -20 penalty in combat like it should be, this discussion never would have happened.

[WrathOG777]

All i think of while trying to picture someone using this ability is Nightcrawler from X-men 2.

He was teleporting. much much different. That would be dimention door as an inate ability, which IS available somewhere in CoPap. However great that looks on film, in game having a high tumble give characters almost that same degree of mobility, unless surrounded of course.

[WrathOG777]

Is it posible to add an animation to HIPS? Not that it would really make any difference balance wise but it should would be cooler. If we could add the shadowsheild animation to HIPS that would really make it look like the shadow dancer was pulling shadows to them to hide. That would just kick ass.

[Redloved]

Is it posible to add an animation to HIPS? Not that it would really make any difference balance wise but it should would be cooler. If we could add the shadowsheild animation to HIPS that would really make it look like the shadow dancer was pulling shadows to them to hide. That would just kick ass.

I like that idea. That would look pretty awesome.

[Vanor]

Dropping out of combat an instant and hitting HIPS for a sneak attack is hideing while attacking. That is why I put up the withdraw from combat rules to show what exactly would be required to be considered not-attacking.

There is a major difference between not attacking, and withdrawing from combat.

It says quite clearly you get the -20 if you attempt to hide while attacking. That means you are actively attacking someone. It does not say a -20 while being attacked, or with in X feet of someone you were involved in combat with, or with in x seconds of your last attack, or anything else.

In NWN, if you disengage from combat, you are no longer attacking, period. You lose all qued attack actions, ect, so you can not attack, disengage, HiPS, sneak attack all in one round.

If and only if you can prove, that you can do what I stated, attack, disengage, HiPS, then attack again, in a 6 second period, will this be considered an explote.

[storminj]

From my experience there is a pause involved.

Hide
Attack enemy
Stop attacking/enemy finishes attacks
HIPS
Target enemy
Pause
Sneak attack

No matter how fast you click the buttons there seems to be a pause before next attack. The main reason I know this is because the creature will continue attack actions to finish round and then attack again before you do if it continues to target you.

I was fighting troll berserkers and half of time they would not even pause in fighting just keep attacking. The only thing that made it worth using hips is that I can use sneak attack that triples my average damage.

[Vanor]

From my experience there is a pause involved.

Based on that, there is no bug, and the 3-4 second thing where you can't be targeted doesn't actually exist either.

[Titanium Dragon]

Actually, attacking, disengaging, and using HiPS in a single round is illegal, because you are taking two actions in a round when you are only supposed to be able to take one.

[Vanor]

Actually, attacking, disengaging, and using HiPS in a single round is illegal, because you are taking two actions in a round when you are only supposed to be able to take one.

Only in PnP, NWN works differently and there is simply nothing we can do to change that. Also we're talking about one action which according to Storminj, does not really alter anything. The NPC still gets it's attacks in as it should. So unless someone can disprove Storminj's statement, there is absolutly nothing wrong with how HiPS works currently.

[storminj]

Are talking to vanor about PnP or me? This happens over three rounds for me (possibly 2 1/2) if you do not coun't the first hide action.

Actually, attacking, disengaging, and using HiPS in a single round is illegal, because you are taking two actions in a round when you are only supposed to be able to take one.

[WrathOG777]

From my experience there is a pause involved.

Based on that, there is no bug, and the 3-4 second thing where you can't be targeted doesn't actually exist either.

it is a 3-4 second interval where SDs are automaticaly considered hidden w/o skill check that has been mentioned. This only makes one immune to target by spells and abilities, not the continuation of a full round attack action.

[marauder]

As long as the NPC can get an attack in there is no issue. It would be if the NPC has no way to do anything if the SD is using the attack/hide tactic that anything should be changed.


I am a bit rusty, but sneaking up on someone might give you a free round to attack, then initiative is rolled for the next round and if your stealth character won he/she could then hide that round and the NPC would have no oportunity to act. However losing the initiative would mean the NPC could act before SD.

If the NPC never gets the chance to win initiative then something is wrong and I think this is a big problem.

[Titanium Dragon]

What about PCs?

[WrathOG777]

Well, what about a SD attacking a elf merc? Should they be invinceable to casters? They attack, HIPS, even if the caster is already casting wierd on the poor sap, the spell would get canceled. That is the impression this is giving me. Now it this is not the case, nevermind.

Is this is possible?

SD attacks, then elf starts casting, then SD HIPS, then spell never finishes?

That is what I would call broken. Replace elf and wierd with; bodak scream, dragons breath, umber hulk confusion, vampire dominate, etc etc.

[Vanor]

This only makes one immune to target by spells and abilities, not the continuation of a full round attack action.

And yet, he said that in once case, the NPC's kept attacking even after he used HiPS... Not the continutation of a full round attack, but adtional attacks.

Also it has yet to be proven there is a period where the SD can not be targeted.

What about PCs?

What about them? We will never, ever do anything on Avlis to address CvC issues. We may do things that effect CvC combat, but it is due to other reasons, and not CvC balance.

SD attacks, then elf starts casting, then SD HIPS, then spell never finishes?

In my experance, very little can cause a spell to stop being cast. I have never seen a NPC stop casting a spell for any reason, once it enters the casting animation.

Do you have any reason what so ever to suspect this actually happens? Because it is begining to sound like you all are grasping at straws in the hope to see HiPS nerfed or removed completely.

[kombinat]

SD attacks, then elf starts casting, then SD HIPS, then spell never finishes?

Yep, my SD uses that to great effect in the OC... "oops, he's casting a spell, hide.. there we go, cancelled.. now to sneak attack..".. my reaction within the time it takes for the casting animation to complete is sufficient.
Also had something similar happen to me against an SD in game.. hit the blighter with Dominate Person and he lost the saving throw, but he still managed to HiPS *after* being Dominated, and didn't reappear till it had worn off.. but that was Ming, possessed by Jad, that could be having an effect Petrified the little bugger too, and somehow that wore off...

This thread reminds of the time one of my players stated his Paladin didn't need food or water.
"See, here in the Player's Handbook, it says, 'Good deeds are the meat and drink of paladins'"....