The epic ststem?

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I think this idea

is crap, I love the epic system
25
20%
Has some merit and I agree with it to some regard
30
25%
is too wimpy, I hate the epic system and think we should stop at level 20
6
5%
is off target, there are things wrong but this doesnt address them
19
16%
I have no opinion and am happy with whatever the team decide
16
13%
I love snow
26
21%
 
Total votes: 122
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Post by Shade Stalker » Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:19 pm

Arieanne wrote:
chamalscuro wrote:Vault wipe talk is not even funny. This late in the game with NWN1, Avlis would be finished.
Agree. That would be too harsh.

Not to mention totally pointless. It has been said by Orl several times including I think recently that Vault Wipe is not an option.
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Post by Fredegar » Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:53 pm

Some are saying that epics distort battles by being higher level/having game ending abilities/etc.. It is the responisbility of the epic character's player to pick and choose what they do.

I have an epic level monk character. With the circle I have interacted with I am sure a few feel I am 'epic' while others may just see me as 'epic level'. I've lost most of my interest in the politics and happenings of Avlis so when I log in, it is to attend events of my friends or to socialize with my guildmates.

Both pre-epic and after hitting epic level I always felt it was my responsibility to keep it fun for the rest of the group I am with. If I was the highest level in the party I would try to keep an eye on everyone's health and keep them healed. If others fell behind I would wait on them or try and locate them. If the areas we were going to were not overly dangerous I would use a sling, a bow, a 'No Damage' club, or cursed gloves to hit things with. I would be hitting for less or equal damage as others around me so as not to 'wtf pwn' rooms of mobs in seconds. Now if areas we are going to are dangerous, but something easily handled, I would still swap between cursed gloves/club/parry/ actual weapons. It is my choice depending on the circumstance.

If a DM spawns two pit fiends at elf gate and a person with dev crit walks up and insta kills both... It isn't the feat to blame. It isn't the weapon to blame. It isn't the epic level to blame. It is the player of that character to blame.

If a DM spawns a horde of goblins at the rock and a person casts time stop, IGMS, IGMS, Wierd... Once again, it isn't the spells to blame, it is the player to blame.

--

As far as having epic levels locked and so forth. Who you know and where you play matters more than anything. A dead server won't net you fame or love. A busy server will net you fame or love, fear or hate.
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Post by Khaelindra » Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:06 pm

Grunt wrote:
girlysprite wrote:So this whole; why do people want to be high level? Because of human nature.
Go fight that. ;)
What's the DC on that? Should we bring Ed and Divinia?
Divinia is -NOT- scary....but Ed is...8)

Ed, get it! :twisted:
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Post by PrinceOfCrossbreeds » Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:24 pm

Khaelindra wrote:
Grunt wrote:
girlysprite wrote:So this whole; why do people want to be high level? Because of human nature.
Go fight that. ;)
What's the DC on that? Should we bring Ed and Divinia?
Divinia is -NOT- scary....but Ed is...8)

Ed, get it! :twisted:
Now you're just getting paranoid
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Post by Tristan_Durst » Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:48 pm

Grunt wrote:
chamalscuro wrote:
Grunt wrote:
chamalscuro wrote:I think it would be helpful for this discussion for everybody posting to "out" themselves. It would help clarify positions. 'Cause railing against Epics, while running one yourself, well...

Have you ever ran an epic character on Avlis?
No.

Do you currently have an active epic character (played in the last three months)?
No.
Nah. All it will lead to is comparing the yes votes with join dates and grumbling about it.
True. I didn't think of that.

I just wanted add a little transparency to the discussion.
Appreciate the effort though of course :D

Part of the "are you epic¹???" problem is when epic² players look at "level divided by time served" = PG Rank.

Total XP / Days since joining = PG Rating

Of course it can then break down to...

Total XP/(Actual hours played) = XP per hour. If XP per hour > some-arbitrary-number then U = POWERGAMER. I think somewhere it was set at like... 250 per hour?
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Member worlds may use any custom experience system that has been sufficiently playtested. However, the result of that system may not enable player characters to achieve 20th level in less than 6 months while playing 3 hours per day. For new PW's this is hard to ascertain.
This is usually the standard, but it does not take in other factors that would affect this. Such as someone on disability, that plays 18+ hours at a time. I had a very good friend, and was the Lead DM of Arborea that played Avlis, and in 3 months made 22nd level. She was branded a Powergamer without anyone consulting her, or realizing she plays 18-24 hours at a time. Or that her companions were on 16-19 hours at a time with her.

((There were five of us that marathon played Avlis during this time span, and all of us were on an average of 19 hours a day. So by the ruling, we all should have been labeled, but only one of us was.))

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But Yeah, people think that you should only get around 250 per RL hour or you’re a Nasty-No-Good-PGer.
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Post by Fire Monkey » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:00 pm

girlysprite wrote: So this whole; why do people want to be high level? Because of human nature.
Go fight that. ;)

Thats what we in the T'Nanshi army have been trying to do for years!!! I await Amiru's sign up papers at your earliest convenience :)
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Post by Sinbadsam » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:06 pm

I like the system as it is. Yes I had "played" Bregg continuesly and as my only character she would be Epic now. Yes she is near epic now.

But as many have observed. I play more than one character(wemic) at this time.

*Kneels down, bows and chants in the Direction of Niighthawk*

"Blessed is the One of the Most Characters, the shinning Example!"

Why do you play some many? Why do some people have more than one pair of shoes? It gives me the "Choice" of playing a character for the mood/role mode I am in. :D Yes I do have fun playing that many characters, keeping track of which plot action each has been involved in.

As for the Epics?

Have a Battle Royale,,

Every Epic in Avlis thrown in one arena, No Rules, No Limitations, All Feats Allowed, All spells Allowed, Every Item allowed. When the last ten are standing, they get to stay epic, the rest get busted down, below Epicness. :twisted:

May the Best Epic or Ed win. :twisted:
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Post by Ilsensine » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:20 pm

spokeydonkey wrote:This has come up before, and I doubt Avlis is going to implement it, since it isn't their way of doing things..
Not only has the horse been let out of teh barn on this one.

...but....
  • The Barn has sank into the swamp
  • It was rebuilt,
  • and it fell over .. and sank into the swamp
  • it was rebuilt
  • it burned down, fell over and then sank into the swamp
Despite any desires that something like this be implemented.. and frankly if it were my decision all those years/months ago - i would have locked out epic levels as suggested....but...the likelyhood of this appearing....remote doesnt cover it.
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Post by Glofindel » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:57 pm

Tangleroot wrote:Some of us have problems with the way too much epicness screws the system and the setting, instead of being worried 'how someone else is playing their character'
Thems some big words there that mean absolutly nothing without an 'splination....*like that will happen*
I would love to see it explained, don't get me wrong...I am very curious indeed.
H'Fox wrote:I just havent liked the way the introduction of Epic has 'a'ffected people and they way they play.
And how is this....seriously.


I see a lot of this talk without a definition....go ahead, explain it! It's gone this far, jump in all the way!
*not that I do not THINK I know the answer, but I want to hear it from the horses mouth.*
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Post by Tangleroot » Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:37 pm

Calling planet Condescension... How about you read my previous post then. I gave several examples... :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Post by Heronimous Fox » Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:09 pm

Glofindel wrote:
H'Fox wrote:I just havent liked the way the introduction of Epic has 'a'ffected people and they way they play.
And how is this....seriously.
OK :)....having been around here a lot you get used to peoples playing patterns. When you role play with someone who is a good and consistent role player for years....and i seriously mean years....and then all of a sudden that person stops...starts crafting and seems to gain a level a week between levels 30 and 40....this is what I mean when a persons play has been affected. This is an extreme example but they are kicking around at the minute
I see a lot of this talk without a definition....go ahead, explain it! It's gone this far, jump in all the way!
*not that I do not THINK I know the answer, but I want to hear it from the horses mouth.*
Isn't this what they call a cluster......anyway..... the point of this was for me to gauge whether my impression (and i seriously use the word 'impression ' here) :) was shared.

From what i canb gather form the above I would draw the following:

It seems there is some sentiment in this thread to my 'impression'
A similar number disagree with my 'impression'
The horse (I think its done enough talking) has already bolted regarding doing something about it BUT if any spin offs occur in the future (NWN2) hopefully some of this type of learning may be taken into that project.
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Post by apandapion » Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:18 pm

Pathos Street wrote:This all revolves around an issue with advancement-based online RPG's that no game designer ever, anywhere, has solved.

If your game/world/whatever is successful, it will retain players. Since those players are retained, they will advance. Given enough time, there will always be a disproportionate amount of powerful characters. This results in new players joining, seeing that the powerful characters are having fun, and wanting to rush to reach that pinnacle to join in the fun.

In most MMOG's, this has manifested as a powergaming sprint to attain the highest level, so that you can participate in the game world to the fullest, and many MMOG's these days are designed around this reality.
They are misdesigned, all of them, for long term retention. Each step up the ladder should take more time and give less power the farther you get up the scale.

From a game design perspective, NWN was a horrible idea - you've got all of the horsepower of the computer's cpu, and instead of using any of it you instead choose a game system that can be run with a cup of dice. It's only worth it for slapping "D&D" on your product.
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Post by tric » Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:23 am

so whats the problem???

epic character A decides to gain levels by crafting instead of RPing...and this is bad because now their gaining levels without interacting with their old freinds? or is it because they arn't interacting with new guild freinds?

anyone giving up RP for xp is going to be frowned on i feel....

spawns?? well any low level char can tell you what happens when a high level or group spawns creatures in an area that they're in... i think the response is 'don't assume any area is safe because you can ussually solo it'

epics in dm happenings...dm could always ask the epic to go for a walk so the big group of lowbies can have some fun...or the epic could do what the above posting monk did/does...

if epic A is jumping into every bit of dm spawning funidge and pwning everything leaving everyone else wondering why they're hanging around then that epic is a bit of an arse

theres not going to be a vault wipe
seems folks don't want a level cap

so what do we do?
call folks whiners?
call the folks calling folks whiners c*nts?

get on with gaming and play your epic chars with a bit of consideration for others to increase fun
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Post by girlysprite » Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:31 am

when in a DM event its about battling, yeah, having such uber epics around is hard. But seriously, how many DM events are only fighting? I mean, I bumped into two low end midlevel people a time ago, they were in a DM quest. I was allowed to roll along, killed a few critters, okay...but it was mainly talk, and I tried to stand back and let the midlevels handle all that. DM was happy, group was happy, I was happy.


Things arent going to be screwed, but everyone has to adapt and cooperate a bit. I have heard of big attacks launched, where people were divided into groups based on level so everyone could fight something that was right for their level.
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Post by Glofindel » Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:40 am

H'Fox wrote:OK ....having been around here a lot you get used to peoples playing patterns. When you role play with someone who is a good and consistent role player for years....and i seriously mean years....and then all of a sudden that person stops...starts crafting and seems to gain a level a week between levels 30 and 40....this is what I mean when a persons play has been affected. This is an extreme example but they are kicking around at the minute
If this is what you have seen, I agree 110% there is an issue. Not sure if it is totally the systems fault, but it has its place in conjunction with the player. I am taking for granted this happened right after Epic came into play with the expansion. I am also going to pose the possibility that this person/peopl were perhaps close to maxed on the level 20 cap?
Even still....
Point taken....I now stand informed.

That being said, I am not sure the proposal will not do more harm than good, but I at least understand fully the basis for it. Perhaps an RP based reward system incorporated to allow epic progression would have been something to take a hard look at then. Hindsight is 20/20.
Tangleroot wrote:Calling planet Condescension... How about you read my previous post then. I gave several examples...
I saw those examples and it is indeed a matter of personal taste. It does not neccesarily, IMO, have the same impact of Foxes reply. Given Foxes simple example, I think there is enough impact to warrent his suggestion to tell you the truth, and now that I see where he is coming from, I appreciate where it came from.
Not that I think it would have helped, as the introduction of Epics and Epic feats is what drove his examples to race up the ladder, from what I can discern anyways.
Personal taste is more....err...personal taste. In a MMORPG, the mean is creating a system that encourages as many players as possible in most cases, as everyone benefits the most from this concept. (My personal opinion)
While I understand, I personally do not think personal taste in this regard warrents a look at change, as some of those complaints are easily overcome (beef up Balors so they are Epic also), and the rest do not seem on the surface to me to be that impactful to the entire playerbase.
As you said already though, and I do feel this is true...the milk is spilt already, blame Bioware.
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Re: The epic ststem?

Post by Deider » Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:46 pm

Avlis has been pretty dead lately. The forums are dead. I see no more than half a dozen people on every night and half of them are team members. I know people will say "it's because it is summer" but let's be real, this isn't 2006 and none of us are on summer break from university anymore.

So where is everybody? Have people gotten bored and moved on to other things? Or is it something else?

If it has to do with the fact that everyone's epic now and demi-godlike in power, is it time for the dreaded "vault wipe"?

Is it time to wipe Avlis' <REDACTED TO ADHERE TO TEAM GUIDELINES, REPLACED WITH SYNONYM> donkey?
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Re: The epic ststem?

Post by Ninjar » Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:50 pm

A good metric would be to vault wipe anyone who doesn't reply to this with 24 hours, chain email style.

(I'm now safe)
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Re: The epic ststem?

Post by Eef » Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:52 pm

I can't speak for others but vault wiping would be a great way to chase me away.
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Re: The epic ststem?

Post by Ghostie » Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:52 pm

Deider wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:46 pm
So where is everybody? Have people gotten bored and moved on to other things? Or is it something else?

If it has to do with the fact that everyone's epic now and demi-godlike in power, is it time for the dreaded "vault wipe"?

Is it time to wipe Avlis' <REDACTED TO ADHERE TO TEAM GUIDELINES, REPLACED WITH SYNONYM> donkey?
Do you really want an answer to this, or are you just raising your post count? :lol: Actually, probably better be careful with my answer, or this thread/post may mysteriously disappear...
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Re: The epic ststem?

Post by ScottG » Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:27 pm

It's an older game and the main draw of it is RP, new stories and places to explore, and actual persistent change of the world. I think the main issue isn't adding more features that make characters have more abilities or more power but more ways to affect the world and forward the plot of the world along.
That's something that no other game can really give people.
Figuring out innovation in that space is what I really like seeing and exploring and I think brings people back when they feel they are part of a world...
But that's just my 2 cents and where I'm interested.
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Re: The epic ststem?

Post by Sarmanos » Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:03 pm

Deider wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:46 pm
I know people will say "it's because it is summer" but let's be real, this isn't 2006 and none of us are on summer break from university anymore.
Maybe, but there were people keeping themselves limited in RL social stuff for over a year due to COVID. So that's a thing. How much that affected people playing Avlis? Dunno.
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Re: The epic ststem?

Post by gutemensch » Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:20 pm

Yea, as one anti-social SoB, the allure of escaping is appealing. Even I am planning trips and taking the family places. Going out of the house and meeting people face to face, eating food I didn't cook with friends and family, and getting back into the routine of life again since not under Covid house arrest anymore. Sometimes I just leave the house to physically leave the house.

Not just that but the daily schedule is now different. My kiddo's crap he does has gone zoom lessons to in person, from 2 hours a week, seven hours a week. Add driving to that and it's 10 hours. Everything is changing, going back to what it was but different.

It is summer and it's special summer; it's freedom summer. Most of us have been released and were going outside. Once, the weather turns too hot or people remember why they hate being around other people. It will be a light turnout.
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Re: The epic ststem?

Post by Katroine » Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:11 pm

It's not summer. Poor summer.
Our population did not go wild during Covid lockdown so not that either.

I have thoughts but will post in the other thread (when I am sure I sound less bitchy/more helpy) later just to keep all the "how to improve..." in one place.
Last edited by Katroine on Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The epic ststem?

Post by Olisa » Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:12 pm

I think this is a post COVID thing, I know I am going out more and meeting with friends now I hadn't seen in literally a year. On the other hand it actually is approaching summer and to my delight, so-cal car shows are opening up and that will be eating up at least one day every weekend.

Also I am in the process of building another classic car for myself, its a 1967 Chevrolet Chevelle, we are doing a major engine/transmission swap as well as other modernization efforts. I've been working on this one weekend day a week for several months now at a friends shop in Los Angeles and that too is eating into game time. We are nearing completion and I'm itching to take it to shows as well.
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Re: The epic ststem?

Post by Manuel the White » Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:49 pm

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