The epic ststem?

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I think this idea

is crap, I love the epic system
25
20%
Has some merit and I agree with it to some regard
30
25%
is too wimpy, I hate the epic system and think we should stop at level 20
6
5%
is off target, there are things wrong but this doesnt address them
19
16%
I have no opinion and am happy with whatever the team decide
16
13%
I love snow
26
21%
 
Total votes: 122
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Post by tric » Tue Jan 17, 2006 5:34 am

i'm not sure i understand the problem here

as grunt said ...if an epic is ruining your fun do the email to the staff thing

otherwise whats the biggy??

i'd rather the dms and dev team focussed on improving the game with adventures and stuff rather than on policing rp...and limiting epics is really just that...policing

i played on a world where the level was capped at 6 and no player was above 13 (for 2 years i played)...did this mean there were no complaints about pgers??? hell no

there were complaints about favouritism too and denies from the team about favouritism that existed and even a ban on complaining....

leave the system as it is i say...it isn't perfect but no comp game is ever going to mimic pnp perfectly.

i've never had an epic char and i've had plenty of dm attention which to me is being involved in the world...even without dm attention anyone can feel involved by getting involved in a group or guild or simply interacting with other players.

having fun shouldn't be about being the biggest most kick arse character

c'mon :roll:
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Post by Dark_EK » Tue Jan 17, 2006 5:39 am

Ban all epics!

*runs*
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Post by Khaelindra » Tue Jan 17, 2006 5:56 am

Glofindel wrote:
Most of Epics of Avlis are listed here: http://www.avlis.org/viewforum.php?f=247.
Sans one person, I agree to be epic as it is meant in a non-mechanichal way, you either are on this list...or are infamously on a similar "Villans" list.
:shock:


:(


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Post by Pathos Street » Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:17 am

This all revolves around an issue with advancement-based online RPG's that no game designer ever, anywhere, has solved.

If your game/world/whatever is successful, it will retain players. Since those players are retained, they will advance. Given enough time, there will always be a disproportionate amount of powerful characters. This results in new players joining, seeing that the powerful characters are having fun, and wanting to rush to reach that pinnacle to join in the fun.

In most MMOG's, this has manifested as a powergaming sprint to attain the highest level, so that you can participate in the game world to the fullest, and many MMOG's these days are designed around this reality.

Avlis has been and continues to be immensely enjoyable for me, because mechanical advancement is not the salient feature of the system. Yes, there is advancement, and yes, there is a "grind"... compounded by the myriad ingenious "grind" systems developed by the team (i.e. crafting) but not since my very earliest days when I still had little idea what Avlis (or RP in an online game in general) was even about have I felt as if I couldn't participate in the world.

My fear is that Avlis may have reached the point where new players are viewing Avlis as the former case rather than the latter. That joe newbie comes in, sees "impossible" characters chatting about the latest attacks on the city, plotting to overthrow this or that, or fighting off awesome monsters that they die almost instantly to and says to himself (perhaps not literally) "hey, I need some mechanical power to be able to participate. I need to be able to beat people in CvC or kill epic DM spawns in order to make a difference in the world."

Why? Because Avlis is successful. Avlis has retained enough players for a long-enough period of time that a disproportionate percentage of the playerbase has at least one high-level character. It is no longer possible for a DM to spawn something at Elf Gate or the Rock that won't be easily defeated and still allow low-level characters to contribute. It is no longer possible for DM's to run individual plots for every well-RPed character. It is a problem, sure, but it is a good problem to have. It means the world is thriving.

How do we solve it? It can't, in my opinion, be some artificially imposed change to the system (be it a level cap or something that encourages players to powergame to some arbitrary minimum "you can join in now" level**... both ideas that I absolutely resent), nor an arbitrary judgement of "worthiness" handed down from on high. Perhaps the 3E epic system is flawed, but it is what we have, and it is better than an entirely linear advancement. The question, therefore, isn't "how do we limit people from advancing" but "how do we limit the growing perception that mechanical advancement = character advancement?" It has been my opinion for a long time that one way to prevent this attitude is by players of high-level characters making more of a concerted effort to include new players and low-level characters in the game, be it through supporting players in your guild, delegating tasks in a DM plot, buying crafting supplies or crafted items from young 'uns (I won't get into how I think P-merchants buying these things contributes to the grind > RP shift), taking time to RP with and help them out, etc. etc. A lot of fantastic players already do this, but it should be more. Every epic-level character should ideally be instantly identifiable in the circles they move in, not because they can WotB or dev crit anyone who disagrees with them, but because they have brought about knowledge of their character through IG action.

My advice to any new players that may be reading this: If you really really want to be a part of the world, and enjoy the Avlis experience to the utmost, the way to do it is not through killing thousands of monsters or crafting ten gajillion heal potions, but rather through interacting with the world, with your fellow players. In other words, RP. This is a multiplayer Role Playing game. Multiplayer. Role-playing. Play your character, with other characters, stop to smell the roses once in a while, and the fun will come to you, I goddamn guarantee it. :D

** I think the "you will find participation on Avlis difficult unless you powergame to level 2, here's how:" sign should be taken out of the start tent. It's a horrible first impression to make, and entirely incorrect, IMHO.
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Post by JollyOrc » Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:45 am

Tangleroot wrote:Since people seem to quote me selectively:
Everyone being epic is lame and has very little to do with Dungeons and Dragons anymore
Yes, Hackmaster and epic level Rulemaster with all the 8 compendium books can be fun too, but I'd have preferred a more traditional d&d experience.
I resent that:

Rolemaster is waaay different from D&D. We got fancy critical tables! :twisted:
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Post by Vipact » Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:32 am

Taking a page out of avlis history, because I am procrastinating doing work, it occurs to me that the only true answer is an epic character trade in!

Have epic characters trade for level one characters. . . and a nice cup (or cups). Then change the xp system! I'd just be like the item trade-in.

... *cough*
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Post by Tony Wazz » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:06 am

Pathos Street wrote:This all revolves around an issue with advancement-based online RPG's that no game designer ever, anywhere, has solved.

If your game/world/whatever is successful, it will retain players. Since those players are retained, they will advance. Given enough time, there will always be a disproportionate amount of powerful characters. This results in new players joining, seeing that the powerful characters are having fun, and wanting to rush to reach that pinnacle to join in the fun.

In most MMOG's, this has manifested as a powergaming sprint to attain the highest level, so that you can participate in the game world to the fullest, and many MMOG's these days are designed around this reality.

Avlis has been and continues to be immensely enjoyable for me, because mechanical advancement is not the salient feature of the system. Yes, there is advancement, and yes, there is a "grind"... compounded by the myriad ingenious "grind" systems developed by the team (i.e. crafting) but not since my very earliest days when I still had little idea what Avlis (or RP in an online game in general) was even about have I felt as if I couldn't participate in the world.

My fear is that Avlis may have reached the point where new players are viewing Avlis as the former case rather than the latter. That joe newbie comes in, sees "impossible" characters chatting about the latest attacks on the city, plotting to overthrow this or that, or fighting off awesome monsters that they die almost instantly to and says to himself (perhaps not literally) "hey, I need some mechanical power to be able to participate. I need to be able to beat people in CvC or kill epic DM spawns in order to make a difference in the world."

Why? Because Avlis is successful. Avlis has retained enough players for a long-enough period of time that a disproportionate percentage of the playerbase has at least one high-level character. It is no longer possible for a DM to spawn something at Elf Gate or the Rock that won't be easily defeated and still allow low-level characters to contribute. It is no longer possible for DM's to run individual plots for every well-RPed character. It is a problem, sure, but it is a good problem to have. It means the world is thriving.

How do we solve it? It can't, in my opinion, be some artificially imposed change to the system (be it a level cap or something that encourages players to powergame to some arbitrary minimum "you can join in now" level**... both ideas that I absolutely resent), nor an arbitrary judgement of "worthiness" handed down from on high. Perhaps the 3E epic system is flawed, but it is what we have, and it is better than an entirely linear advancement. The question, therefore, isn't "how do we limit people from advancing" but "how do we limit the growing perception that mechanical advancement = character advancement?" It has been my opinion for a long time that one way to prevent this attitude is by players of high-level characters making more of a concerted effort to include new players and low-level characters in the game, be it through supporting players in your guild, delegating tasks in a DM plot, buying crafting supplies or crafted items from young 'uns (I won't get into how I think P-merchants buying these things contributes to the grind > RP shift), taking time to RP with and help them out, etc. etc. A lot of fantastic players already do this, but it should be more. Every epic-level character should ideally be instantly identifiable in the circles they move in, not because they can WotB or dev crit anyone who disagrees with them, but because they have brought about knowledge of their character through IG action.

My advice to any new players that may be reading this: If you really really want to be a part of the world, and enjoy the Avlis experience to the utmost, the way to do it is not through killing thousands of monsters or crafting ten gajillion heal potions, but rather through interacting with the world, with your fellow players. In other words, RP. This is a multiplayer Role Playing game. Multiplayer. Role-playing. Play your character, with other characters, stop to smell the roses once in a while, and the fun will come to you, I goddamn guarantee it. :D

** I think the "you will find participation on Avlis difficult unless you powergame to level 2, here's how:" sign should be taken out of the start tent. It's a horrible first impression to make, and entirely incorrect, IMHO.

Well thought out. Well said. Thank You. Now if only we could have more people simply enjoy the game instead of worrying about others being more "powerful" than they are. I have seen a WHOLE LOT of characters pass me by....and I don't care. I have fun here. I have found with the longer I am on this PW, the more IC responsibility I have to both other characters and Guilds. WHat does that translate to? Less play time....more board work....less advancement....more people passing me by in levels...but, do I care? No.

Yeah, sometimes I think " Wow, I was like level 16 when she was level 2 and now she's level 27! How the hell? " Meh, I have fun. I'm too worried about having fun to have any wish to ruin the fun of others. I look at it like RL. THere are those people who look to find a better job, or get better education, or enjoy thier off time to "Stop and smell the roses."......and there are those who are always interested in why they aren't "better" and why they feel someone is "better". Anyone know , or have a friend, in RL who always seems to try to have a better stereo......TV....car....computer...and is always there to point out that they are better, and that so-an-so doesn't deserve thier things? IF not, You might be that person.

It's a game. Have fun. If not, buy some cheese with that whine.
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Post by Tangleroot » Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:25 am

Some of us have problems with the way too much epicness screws the system and the setting, instead of being worried 'how someone else is playing their character'. If I told you what I think of your 'whine' comment, this thread would be in Rants faster than you could say *censored*.
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Post by Khaelindra » Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:50 am

I think it's time that many people here understand that complaints are not always about "he is so strong" but about "because he is so strong, the standard spawns and DM-spawns are made so tough that i can't cope anymore".
The level of other people DOES impact your own playing experience as soon as spawns are being tailored to accomodate for hordes of (high-)epic characters present. If you dismiss the very base of that complaint as "shut up about other people", you're not only missing the point but also not respecting the genuine problem that those people have with the effect that -IS- noticable for them.
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Post by Heronimous Fox » Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:55 am

For the record....I get as much enjoyment out of playing Fox lvl 20/3, as I do Nia lvl 2/2, Zvak lvl 3/2 or deek lvl 9.

I just havent liked the way the introduction of Epic has 'a'ffected people and they way they play.
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Post by Tristan_Durst » Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:52 pm

Vipact wrote:Taking a page out of avlis history, because I am procrastinating doing work, it occurs to me that the only true answer is an epic character trade in!

Have epic characters trade for level one characters. . . and a nice cup (or cups). Then change the xp system! I'd just be like the item trade-in.

... *cough*
Perhaps throwing in some +1 Armour, and/or a +1 weapon as well.

j/k

In this thread I am seeing has two issues on it. XP capping, and "cause he is EPIC, he is ruining my enjoyment of running my NON-EPIC character." I posted my views on XP capping. Great tool for a small server to control power level. Avlis, it would not work. Tooooooo Large, and no one is wants a vault wipe of PCs to make the system fully effective.

As for the second point, I have a 10th level PC running around on Avlis. I enjoy running him, UNTIL I run into a Spawn Wake from a group of EPICS that don't have the regard to kill their spawns. Example: I was walking from Le'Or to Mikona via the central Wilderness road. About a board or two past the Ambush bridge ((its the big one where the road goes around an outcroping of stone)) my 10th level PC runs into 3 Dire Tigers, and a Dire Bear. I have been through this spawn area several times before and since, and NEVER has my 10th level PC spawned 3 DIRE TIGERS. Bolded the Epic spawns for clarity. I barely manage, useing ever buff spell, hammer of god, flame strike, and Invisabilty potions I had to kill them. Thank good ness for friendly O'Ma Druids that spawned as well.

Point is, I have no problems with EPIC characters, until THEY make the problem, by puting NON-EPICS in danger. Guess I am saying:

Kill your bloody spawns!!!
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Post by Fire Monkey » Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:58 pm

Tristan_Durst wrote:
Vipact wrote:Taking a page out of avlis history, because I am procrastinating doing work, it occurs to me that the only true answer is an epic character trade in!

Have epic characters trade for level one characters. . . and a nice cup (or cups). Then change the xp system! I'd just be like the item trade-in.

... *cough*
Perhaps throwing in some +1 Armour, and/or a +1 weapon as well.

j/k

In this thread I am seeing has two issues on it. XP capping, and "cause he is EPIC, he is ruining my enjoyment of running my NON-EPIC character." I posted my views on XP capping. Great tool for a small server to control power level. Avlis, it would not work. Tooooooo Large, and no one is wants a vault wipe of PCs to make the system fully effective.

As for the second point, I have a 10th level PC running around on Avlis. I enjoy running him, UNTIL I run into a Spawn Wake from a group of EPICS that don't have the regard to kill their spawns. Example: I was walking from Le'Or to Mikona via the central Wilderness road. About a board or two past the Ambush bridge ((its the big one where the road goes around an outcroping of stone)) my 10th level PC runs into 3 Dire Tigers, and a Dire Bear. I have been through this spawn area several times before and since, and NEVER has my 10th level PC spawned 3 DIRE TIGERS. Bolded the Epic spawns for clarity. I barely manage, useing ever buff spell, hammer of god, flame strike, and Invisabilty potions I had to kill them. Thank good ness for friendly O'Ma Druids that spawned as well.

Point is, I have no problems with EPIC characters, until THEY make the problem, by puting NON-EPICS in danger. Guess I am saying:

Kill your bloody spawns!!!

T'Nanshi is full of nice elves, plenty of whom are druids and rangers. Animal spawns were specifically altered to as to not attack rangers and druids so they didn't have to constantly find IC excuses for having to slaughter every animal they came accross. Now if we spawn animals we just say "hello nice animal" and go about our merry way, that is of course unless we are hunting or hungry.

Whilst most people attempt to kill all of the spawns they spawn, a lot of spawns spawn as you cross a transition to leave an area and often you may not be at all aware that you spawned anything at all.
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Post by mortzestus » Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:09 pm

The despawner takes care of most of these situations.
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Post by RCon » Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:10 pm

mortzestus wrote:The despawner takes care of most of these situations.
And a relatively inexpensive potion of invisibility can take care of 99% of the rest. Potions: never leave home without them.
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Post by chamalscuro » Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:27 pm

I think it would be helpful for this discussion for everybody posting to "out" themselves. It would help clarify positions. 'Cause railing against Epics, while running one yourself, well...

Have you ever ran an epic character on Avlis?
No.

Do you currently have an active epic character (played in the last three months)?
No.
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Post by Grunt » Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:15 pm

chamalscuro wrote:I think it would be helpful for this discussion for everybody posting to "out" themselves. It would help clarify positions. 'Cause railing against Epics, while running one yourself, well...

Have you ever ran an epic character on Avlis?
No.

Do you currently have an active epic character (played in the last three months)?
No.
Nah. All it will lead to is comparing the yes votes with join dates and grumbling about it.

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Post by Pathos Street » Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:25 pm

Tangleroot wrote:Reduction of value of mid levels. 10+ levels, which are most of the time the best time in D&D are sort of an extended noob period with the epix.
Sorry, but I have to disagree on this one point. I had a fricking blast around the low mid levels, and it remains my favorite period in my character's career thus far. By level 12 Fergus was apprenticed to the Archmage, senior mage of Mikona for the Ivory, up to his eyeballs in the Lobera plot, learning things, making the connections and friendships (some of whom would soon become adversaries) that would shape the rest of his career, and so on. If anyone feels that they can't have fun at any and every level between 1 and 40, that they must go past a certain number or remain below a certain number to enjoy the world, then they are absolutely wrong IMO.
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Post by girlysprite » Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:30 pm

I think despite adverstising that you dont need levels to rp, people just want levels. Why? Human nature. If we can get better, we want it.
I like my levels. Not really because it enforces my rp, but just because. We are like Pavlovs puppy. A levelup is something nice within the mechnical set, and deep inside, we want it ;).

So this whole; why do people want to be high level? Because of human nature.
Go fight that. ;)
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Post by chamalscuro » Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:32 pm

Grunt wrote:
chamalscuro wrote:I think it would be helpful for this discussion for everybody posting to "out" themselves. It would help clarify positions. 'Cause railing against Epics, while running one yourself, well...

Have you ever ran an epic character on Avlis?
No.

Do you currently have an active epic character (played in the last three months)?
No.
Nah. All it will lead to is comparing the yes votes with join dates and grumbling about it.
True. I didn't think of that.

I just wanted add a little transparency to the discussion.
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Post by Grunt » Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:38 pm

girlysprite wrote:So this whole; why do people want to be high level? Because of human nature.
Go fight that. ;)
What's the DC on that? Should we bring Ed and Divinia?

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Post by icegard » Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:45 pm

spokeydonkey wrote:
girlysprite wrote:DM's dont have time for it is my guess. I mean, how much does a person have to do to become epic. And what about those that are epic already? That would be unfair to new characters.
Sorry, but you are too late to adress the problem to solve it.
Vault wipe!

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Post by chamalscuro » Tue Jan 17, 2006 5:14 pm

Vault wipe talk is not even funny. This late in the game with NWN1, Avlis would be finished.
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Post by Arieanne » Tue Jan 17, 2006 5:19 pm

chamalscuro wrote:Vault wipe talk is not even funny. This late in the game with NWN1, Avlis would be finished.
Agree. That would be too harsh.
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Post by Grunt » Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:05 pm

chamalscuro wrote:
Grunt wrote:
chamalscuro wrote:I think it would be helpful for this discussion for everybody posting to "out" themselves. It would help clarify positions. 'Cause railing against Epics, while running one yourself, well...

Have you ever ran an epic character on Avlis?
No.

Do you currently have an active epic character (played in the last three months)?
No.
Nah. All it will lead to is comparing the yes votes with join dates and grumbling about it.
True. I didn't think of that.

I just wanted add a little transparency to the discussion.
Appreciate the effort though of course :D

Part of the "are you epic¹???" problem is when epic² players look at "level divided by time served" = PG Rank.

Total XP / Days since joining = PG Rating

Of course it can then break down to...

Total XP/(Actual hours played) = XP per hour. If XP per hour > some-arbitrary-number then U = POWERGAMER. I think somewhere it was set at like... 250 per hour?

Now for the record, I like cake. I like lots of kinds of cake. I also like how you can enjoy the frosting on the cake, or just the cake itself, maybe even the HAPPY BIRTHDAY GRANDMA written in that (non toxic??) gel stuff, or putting on candles that don't blow out which is funny the first 40 times you see it... hell even biting the head off of the bride figurine on your best friend's wedding cake, after making the DJ play Ozzy Osbourne's "Bark at the Moon" as their first dance for a joke can be fun.

I made a choice to enjoy my cake in game, and stop staring so much at the other guy's plate. :)

If it really was "all about the RP"... who would care who got to what level and when? It's not a competition, right? Why are people so bull-headed about defending their "epic turf" in a video game? Yeah epic levels should mean something. So should having 1 million gold. So should a lot of things. Why get petty about this?

Why waste so much effort telling people how they should play THEIR character, how fast they should level, and other such junk? If you think someone is playing "wrong" or could use a better way of playing, lead by example not by calls to the team to tweak this or nerf that. If you want a better playerbase, it starts with helping the players in-game to become better players.

The effort we've spent with polls and posts could be better served by pulling someone aside and helping them get immersed in Avlis, getting them involved in things, and showing them whatever option you think they are missing out on.

I enjoy playing with a hell of a lot of you people. A lot of you kick ass mechanics wise, in combat or spellcasting or healing... a lot of you kick ass with good character storylines, or sinister attitudes, or just plain making the guy here behind the keyboard have a good smile on a bad day. A lot of you have both of those qualities mixed together.

Your level and join date don't mean dick to me, and I'm not gonna sweat it. If I can have a good time playing with you, regardless of style, then I'm going to have fun playing with you.

I hope some of you feel the same.

1: In this case Epic refers to Epic Character Levels, the cheesy piece of crap incarnation of allowing people to continue gaining power, and thus keeping them as customers of your game and the expansion paks. In no way does this term 'Epic' refer to your coolness factor, legend status in the realms of Avlis, or pixelated penis size.

2: In this case Epic refers to your coolness factor, legend status in the realms of Avlis, or pixelated penis size.

Thaylis Beign: Morgan, did you cast recitation?
Morgan Thornheart: Yes
Thaylis Beign: *nods*
Morgan Thornheart: Aarilax blesses you all. Now get the fuck out of here.
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Marc van Gaal
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Post by Marc van Gaal » Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:16 pm

I know many epic characters, and almost all of them make Avlis a nicer place to be for me. Sure, adventuring with them can be extremely hard, but it makes them having to take care of me and watch my back. As they should for they are stronger. This brings a new dimention in opposition to being the one taking care of others. I'm loving it!!

I say, keep the system as it is and keep in mind that RP always comes first!!
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