Expertise vs. dodge

[pedsdmd]

Just a question about these feats..

Does the dodge feat raise your AC by 1 or is it negated by other abilities like DEx. Bonus or Equipment that gives +1 didge bonus.

Do people that have the expertise feats like them and find them useful? Obvioulsy one would have to be a high lvl to be able to take the Negative attack rolls

[Wyrmwing]

To answer the first: all dodge bonusses stack

The second would be a matter of preference.. more offence or more defense. It depedns on your willingness to spend the feat slot, and mostly on the circumstance your character finds him/herself in.

[Psyco]

Just a question about these feats..

Does the dodge feat raise your AC by 1 or is it negated by other abilities like DEx. Bonus or Equipment that gives +1 didge bonus.

dodge boni stack

Do people that have the expertise feats like them and find them useful? Obvioulsy one would have to be a high lvl to be able to take the Negative attack rolls

they can be very usefull if used correctly. Sometimes it doesn't matter if you can't hit something, as long as its not hitting you. Think archer or mage support type situations, you stand there trading useless blows while someone else is doing damage.

[WrathOG777]

Expertise and dodge feats stack with everything.

Dodge only works vs one target.

Expertise is invaluable, I highly recomend it. It's strength is not in your ability to be more effective in combat. It's strength is in becomeing a more effective group tank. You are giveing up ability to do damage to be more durable. This works very well when you have some support in the back line doing the ass kicking, say like a rogue archer. It is also very good for melees with an amazingly high to-hit and nothing better to do with it. Even at low lvls, your melee is not going to do no damage at all, just less.

[Vichan Lyonsen]

PREREQUISITES: Dexterity of 13+
REQUIRED FOR: Mobility
BONUS FEAT FOR: None
DESCRIPTION: This feat grants a +1 dodge bonus to Armor Class against the character's current target foe or their last attacker.
USE: Automatic, though if any condition robs the character of their Dexterity bonus to AC (such as being caught flat-footed or unaware), they also lose their dodge bonuses to AC.
ANALYSIS: While +1 to AC doesn't seem like much, especially since it is effective against only one foe, it does help. Better yet, it gives access to Mobility (a very useful feat for maneuvering through foes to get to a spellcaster, important target, or to escape), so characters with the qualifying Dexterity scores looking for more defense might well want to take this and its complimentary feat.

The dodge Feat is as described above and if it works as described (and we all know how well everything works in NwN) then the AC bonus gained by this feat is against ONE person and ONE person only, I.e. you are surrounded by five bad guys..only one of them will see the +1 AC, it will not effect your AC for the other Four.

As mentioned earlier, dodge bonuses are the only AC bonuses that stack

[modigliani]

I take it that if you Taunt someone you will leave Expertise mode?

[mortzestus]

You do, but you can turn expertise on again and go on with your attack right away as soon as the taunt animation finishes. I do that one hundred thousand times everyday.

[szabot]

Does casting take you out of expertise mode?

[mortzestus]

NWN has a switch that allows to stop this "abuse" of expertise and it's set to off by default. In Avlis it's set to on and as soon as you cast a spell your expertise mode is cancelled. This won't happen in other modules unless the switch has been set to on deliberately.

Using expertise while casting can be considered an exploit or not, depending on who you ask. Personally i find it pretty lame and i am glad it is out. Casters can use defensive casting mode instead until they take improved combat casting (if ever).

[WrathOG777]

That switch does not acount for stilled and verbal only spells you are supposed to still be able to use while in combat.

[mortzestus]

Yeah and it's biting my arse too.

[szabot]

...Casters can use defensive casting mode instead until they take improved combat casting (if ever).

Defensive casting mode doesn't offer any AC bonus (at least I didn't think it does).

edit: wait a sec! What IS "defensive casting"? Did you mean counter spelling? Or combat casting (the feat)? Or something else?

That switch does not acount for stilled and verbal only spells you are supposed to still be able to use while in combat.

Let me get this straight: are you saying that stilled spells will not take you out of expertise mode?

[pedsdmd]

Someone Brought up defensive casting? what exactly dos that do?

ps. thanks for all the input guys

[szabot]

Two more questions about Expertise: does the AC bonus stack with every other possible AC bonus? What happens if you're in expertise mode and you get knocked down (do you retain the expertise AC bonus)?

[mortzestus]

...Casters can use defensive casting mode instead until they take improved combat casting (if ever).

Defensive casting mode doesn't offer any AC bonus (at least I didn't think it does).

But it avoids any AoOs caused by the casting and that's about the only thing that the average caster can do to defend himself while casting. Hard to parry and dodge incoming blows when you are busy waggling fingers to cast your spells.

That switch does not acount for stilled and verbal only spells you are supposed to still be able to use while in combat.

Let me get this straight: are you saying that stilled spells will not take you out of expertise mode?

No, Wrath is saying that stilled spells shouldn't take you out of expertise mode but they do. While casting a stilled spell you have your hands free to do whatever you want (to some extent) so picking your nose or parrying an incoming blow should be allowed.

Someone Brought up defensive casting? what exactly dos that do?

ps. thanks for all the input guys

It helps you to not provoke any attacks of opportunity if you are in the threatened area of a creature (or several) and you cast a spell. You must succeed in a cnoncentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to be able to cast a spell in defensive casting mode, failure means that you lose the spell.

Two more questions about Expertise: does the AC bonus stack with every other possible AC bonus? What happens if you're in expertise mode and you get knocked down (do you retain the expertise AC bonus)?

Yes, it is a dodge bonus so it stacks with everything. There's a cap of +20 in dodge bonuses but expertise (and tumble) don't count towards the cap.

Whenever you are flatfooted you lose the bonus AC provided by expertise, it doesn't matter if the mode it's still active: it won't be taken into account.

[Midknight]

Improved combat casting does not give an AC bonus either - rather, you don't provoke attacks of opportunity.
Generally, defensive casting is better in all respects, unless you happen to be an epic level caster and lower than 15 ranks in Concentration... if so, shame on you!
The other reason that defensive casting is slightly worse is that it's a mode shift - like Expertise, it takes a round or so to shift into the mode.
But really, the biggest disadvantage of Defensive Casting IMO is that I always forget to use it....

[mortzestus]

Well, i never said that defensive casting mode or improved combat casting gave AC bonuses, i just mentioned them as the only two things that a castar has at his disposal to stay "safe" while casting spells (other than staying away from the fight, that is ). Expertise is not an option for casters in Avlis unless you actually want to use it to fight in melee.

[WrathOG777]

Well, i never said that defensive casting mode or improved combat casting gave AC bonuses, i just mentioned them as the only two things that a castar has at his disposal to stay "safe" while casting spells (other than staying away from the fight, that is ). Expertise is not an option for casters in Avlis unless you actually want to use it to fight in melee.

That is what I have it for.

[mortzestus]

Me too!

[jeanette]

In PnP the reason you can't use expertise while casting is because you're supposed to be making a physical attack to use it. You are using your weapon in a sort of parry mode, which makes your attack less effective. Even if you have still spell and your hands are free, if you're not making a melee attack you can't get the benefit of fighting defensively.

It'd be nice if the engine just didn't give you the AC bonus if you were casting instead of fighting, but alas...

[Khaelindra]

There's a cap of +20 in dodge bonuses but expertise (and tumble) don't count towards the cap.

Damn, i'm glad -SO- they put -THAT- in...too many people with 25-30 dodge bonus AC these days...

[Anniko]

What does Dexterity bonuses count as? Dodge?

[Khaelindra]

What does Dexterity bonuses count as? Dodge?

As Dexterity-bonus...

[mortzestus]

In PnP the reason you can't use expertise while casting is because you're supposed to be making a physical attack to use it. You are using your weapon in a sort of parry mode, which makes your attack less effective. Even if you have still spell and your hands are free, if you're not making a melee attack you can't get the benefit of fighting defensively.

Yes, you are right on this. The only way to get bonus AC without taking an attack action is the total defense mode (not in NWN) and doing that you wouldn't be able to cast a spell or to do anything else.

There's a cap of +20 in dodge bonuses but expertise (and tumble) don't count towards the cap.

Damn, i'm glad -SO- they put -THAT- in...too many people with 25-30 dodge bonus AC these days...

Well, if tumble and expertise counted towards the cap it would be quite reachable at high levels and that's why i clarified. You wouldn't even need godly equipment to achieve that: a guy with +8 from tumble, +10 from improved expertise, +1 dodge feat, +1 hob nail boots would be hitting the cap right there. With the mobility feat you can get another +4 against AoOs and an epic mage can get easily another +10 from spells. So Bob the level 37 mage/rogue would be getting +30 dodge AC (+34 vs. AoOs) using just lowbie gear.

[Khaelindra]

In PnP the reason you can't use expertise while casting is because you're supposed to be making a physical attack to use it. You are using your weapon in a sort of parry mode, which makes your attack less effective. Even if you have still spell and your hands are free, if you're not making a melee attack you can't get the benefit of fighting defensively.

Yes, you are right on this. The only way to get bonus AC without taking an attack action is the total defense mode (not in NWN) and doing that you wouldn't be able to cast a spell or to do anything else.

There's a cap of +20 in dodge bonuses but expertise (and tumble) don't count towards the cap.

Damn, i'm glad -SO- they put -THAT- in...too many people with 25-30 dodge bonus AC these days...

Well, if tumble and expertise counted towards the cap it would be quite reachable at high levels and that's why i clarified. You wouldn't even need godly equipment to achieve that: a guy with +8 from tumble, +10 from improved expertise, +1 dodge feat, +1 hob nail boots would be hitting the cap right there. With the mobility feat you can get another +4 against AoOs and an epic mage can get easily another +10 from spells. So Bob the level 37 mage/rogue would be getting +30 dodge AC (+34 vs. AoOs) using just lowbie gear.

I only know one mage spell that gives dodge AC, and that is (Epic) Mage Armor (+1/+5 dodge and some others). This and the fact that mobility dodge AC is a non-issue (as someone with tumble 15+ will not succeed in ever using it even if they tried) made me wonder why the limit was relevant. No biggie.

I am interested which other mage spells give dodge AC though...enlighten me.