The relative importance of the axes on the alignment grid

Fifty · Post by **Fifty** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:45 pm

What do you think about the relative importance of the two axes on the alignment grid?

Should someone who is LG have as much in common with someone who is LE as they do with someone who is CG?

My personal opinion is that generally good/evil is your ends whereas Lawful.Chaotic is your means and that E/g is more important than C/L, but I'd like to hear your opinions.

Jordicus · Post by **Jordicus** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:51 pm

Post by **Nighthawk4** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:52 pm

Good v Evil is much more important than Lawful v Chaotic, IMHO

Starslayer_D · Post by **Starslayer_D** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:52 pm

Law/Chaos is very important, too. Actually, more of Amoniens actions are motivated by her dim view of chaotic entities then her good/evil axis.

For her, law is the end, and good/evil is the means.

Brock Fanning · Post by **Brock Fanning** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:52 pm

I think if two people have different "means" for the same "end", there is a decent chance they can still be friends.

I think if two people have different "ends", and they KNOW they have different ends, then they will not be very good friends. Even if their "means" might be the same.

Post by **Nighthawk4** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:53 pm

Jordicus wrote:uhm.. the word is "axis".. "axes" are the things you use to chop trees..

Actually, axis is singular, whilst axes are plural

Drakuul · Post by **Drakuul** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:55 pm

whilst axes are plural

Yes, of axe.

Jordicus · Post by **Jordicus** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 8:02 pm

Nighthawk4 wrote:
Jordicus wrote:uhm.. the word is "axis".. "axes" are the things you use to chop trees..

Actually, axis is singular, whilst axes are plural

nope.. NH is right.. never new that before.. always thought Axis was one of those words both singluar and plural.. learned something new today..

back to the discussion...

Post by **Nighthawk4** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 8:02 pm

Drakuul wrote:
whilst axes are plural
Yes, of axe.

Believe me - AXES is the plural of AXIS, as well as of AXE

If not, then ask Vergilius - our resident Latin expert (well one of them anyway).

Fifty · Post by **Fifty** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 8:06 pm

Drakuul wrote:
whilst axes are plural
Yes, of axe.

..and of axis.

Fifty · Post by **Fifty** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 8:11 pm

The pronunciation is different mind you

The axes for axe rhymes with taxes - what you pay to the government.

The axes of axis rhymes with taxies - what you ride to the airport in.

Titanium Dragon · Post by **Titanium Dragon** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 8:17 pm

Chaotic/Lawful and Good/Evil are really equally important. A goretharite would in theory get along just as well with a Dominator as an Avenger. They might appreciate the Dominator's thirst for law and order, but see them as being draconian and overly harsh. They would appreciate the greater good an Avenger would strive for, but would decry assassinations and the like.

In fact, a Dominator is FAR more trustworthy than an Avenger. I wouldn't trust an avenger unless I was an elf or much like them myself, and even then... whereas with a dominator, I would watch my back around them, but I'd at least know that as long as I'm useful to them they are trustworthy.

At least in theory.

I've noticed that LE people tend to get along with good characters better than CE ones generally do. NE ones are a mixed bag - some are liked, some people hate.

Lawful/Chaotic is as important as Good/Evil.

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 8:35 pm

They are of equal importance. Anyone that is LG and disregaurds law in favor of good is not LG, that would be NG. If they always disregaurd law in favor of good then they are CG. Same for LE, NE, and CE relative to evil.

That is what makes beging LG so hard. That is what is supposed to make CE so much the easy road.

Nothing wrong with acting any way with your character, ACCEPT trying to claim an alignment that you are not acting to. If you are breaking laws or disregaurding the wellfare of sentient creatures then own up to your characters actions as a player and take your alignment hits. If you want to be good and break laws that is great! May dru'el light your path or whatever they say. But A)Donot call yourself LE, if you are robbing the rich and feeding the poor. Same goes the other way. B)If you are protecting the rich from getting robbed by the poor, then that action is L and/or E.

And when I say that, remember that ANY player character that can afford a single magic item to use is far far richer then the vast majority of M'chek. So... if you stop the bandits from robbing characters you are in group B. Oh, and just in case folks did not know OOC, some of the bandits in STEAL are good, and some of the profits really do go to charity.

Nob · Post by **Nob** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 8:50 pm

I think it'd honestly depend as much on the character's focus as it would on the specific alignment.

For example:
A. 100 Lawful, 75 Good
vs
B. 75 Lawful, 100 Good.

They're both LG, right?

C. 0 Chaotic, 75 Good
vs
D. 20 Chaotic, 100 Good.

In such a case...

A would most likely dislike both C and D.

Whereas B might find D. more acceptable than C.

The alignment scale if anything also illustrates which axis your character finds to be more important.

A. Would be a Toranite that has good tendencies(For example, Heldor)
B. Would be a Goretharite.

It's what your character finds more important that'll influence how your alignment SHOULD end up.

Vergilius · Post by **Vergilius** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 8:55 pm

Nighthawk4 wrote:
Drakuul wrote:
whilst axes are plural
Yes, of axe.
Believe me - AXES is the plural of AXIS, as well as of AXE

If not, then ask Vergilius - our resident Latin expert (well one of them anyway).

I was reading through the thread and thought about commenting upon the Latin origin of the word, then I read this post and yep, you beat me to it.

Drakuul · Post by **Drakuul** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 10:10 pm

Believe me - AXES is the plural of AXIS, as well as of AXE

I know, I was being flippant

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 10:22 pm

Good v Evil is much more important than Lawful v Chaotic

hmm... I know a fella named Roland who would disagree with that

Actually, more of Amoniens actions are motivated by her dim view of chaotic entities then her good/evil axis.

For her, law is the end, and good/evil is the means.

No wonder he holds her in higher regard than most people

Tahni · Post by **Tahni** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 10:23 pm

Drakuul wrote:
Believe me - AXES is the plural of AXIS, as well as of AXE
I know, I was being flippant

nice hijack though

Sindol · Post by **Sindol** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:53 am

Both axes are equally unimportant. My character's actions make het CG? Fine with me, I'm not going to be acting any differently. Do I change my ways once IC actions start shifting her towards evil? Nope.

Whether two character get along is obviously not always dependent on alignment. It may oocly be a factor, but the nature of any intelligent being is far too complex to put that down as the deciding factor. Lisa (CG) and Amonien (LE) get along much better usually then Lisa gets along with the more stiffnecked LN or LG characters. Why? No idea, but maybe it's because we rarely talk about axes.

Cath · Post by **Cath** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:08 am

True.
My character's best friend is LE and she is NG but they get along just fine.
And we are both playing our respective alignments quite well, if anything we both should be a step closer to C (NE & CG) than we are but that wouldn't bring us any closer to each other.

Our reasons for thinking the same way are different but the end result the same.
There are at least some LG people I don't like however...though we should have much more in common.

And I hate the division into alignments IC.
Like hearing someone make a list of the lawful gods...we don't know anything about alignments IC, the concept as such should be unknown.
We are just people with different views and values all in different shades of grey, not with a label on our foreheads.

Fifty · Post by **Fifty** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:11 am

Cath wrote:And I hate the division into alignments IC.
Like hearing someone make a list of the lawful gods...we don't know anything about alignments IC, the concept as such should be unknown.
We are just people with different views and values all in different shades of grey, not with a label on our foreheads.

So do I. I actually started another long thread about 5 or 6 weeks about the use of the alignment grid being OOC yet people use it IC to form opinions. This thread was actually a cunning bit of devil's advocate typ stuff.

Wolf · Post by **Wolf** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 5:07 pm

Brock Fanning wrote:I think if two people have different "means" for the same "end", there is a decent chance they can still be friends.

While I agree with the general concept you've stated, no such condition ever exists within the D&D universe with opposed alignments.

A Lawful Good Paladin may tolerate a Neutral Good Fighter because they're ultimate goal, the defeat of all things evil, is the same. That same Palaldin, however, will not long stand for the antics of a Chaotic Good character because his need for order and control is in direct conflict with the Chaotic character's need for personal freedom and choice.

You have to remember that alignment is, in fact, 2 seperate conditions with diametrically opposed viewpoints.

A Lawful Good Character and a Lawful Evil character may find themselves temporarily allied to take down a common foe, but the Good character will not turn his back to the Evil one, and the Evil one will not hesitate to turn on the Good one once their temporary truce has ended.

Both conditions must match (or at least be as close as possible) for the characters to consider themselves friends. Thus, while a Lawful character may fight & die to defend others, he will only call L-G, or N-G characters his friends. Chaotic characters are too far from his ideology: they are not a threat to his life, but they are a threat to his way of living. Likewise, while a Good character will share his last scrap of food with an evil character (should some condition exist which forces them to work together), they are not friends, and the Evil character would take all the food if given the opportunity.

This can be circumvented, however, in rare cases where one character has suffered an alignment change (the fallen Paladin can still have his friends, but only insomuch as they are trying to help him return to his former self). If, ultimately, it is decided that he is beyond hope, they will kill him, if forced.

Titanium Dragon · Post by **Titanium Dragon** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 7:31 pm

It also depends on the individual.

Sh'lieulias has a number of friends who are neutrally aligned, and even some who are good aligned. Why? Because in the AKN he is a dedicated researcher, and people respect that. He may be gruff and harsh, but he has an apprentice and shares his knowledge. Several people in the AKN have testified on his behalf towards him being a not-so-bad person. He is also a member of the Ebony Order, and has many friends there as well. He has other friends too.

Likewise, Vence has some friends and some people who respect him. He's a bandit, but most people find him too comical (and stupid) to be truly "evil". He doesn't really think of himself as evil either. Most of his friends are "evil", but he does have a few who are not.

Some people are more or less tolerant of differences in others. Chaotically aligned people are usually more tolerant than lawfully aligned of those who are their opposite, while neutrals tend to be the most tolerant.

I have a couple of characters, one here, one on Abyss 404, who have ambigous alignments. They are who they are, but they aren't purely one alignment or another. They border between neutral and good. I would hesitate to call them "good" alignment wise, though in the real world I would probably get along with at least one of them well. Vence is on his character sheet a certain alignment, and I could argue that is either accurate to his world view or inaccurate.

IC, you don't have a label on your forehead, and it is possible to know someone and not really know their alignment at all.

It is entirely possible for a LG paladin to greatly respect, perhaps even admire a LE fighter for their honor and integrity, especially if the LE fighter doesn't do anything openly that makes it obvious what his true nature is.

Tahni · Post by **Tahni** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:11 pm

Tahni is (was????

) CG, and was shocked to discover most of her friends are of an opposite persausion, still doesn't stop them being friends.

Tahni (CG) and Amonien (LE) don't get on, but that is for IC reasons and Opposite Reglious and Ethical differences, not just alignment. Tahni didn't trust Amonien then IC things happened and now she doesn't like her. Had things been different then I sure they would of been friends

Fifty · Post by **Fifty** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:36 pm

Wolf wrote:Both conditions must match (or at least be as close as possible) for the characters to consider themselves friends. Thus, while a Lawful character may fight & die to defend others, he will only call L-G, or N-G characters his friends. Chaotic characters are too far from his ideology: they are not a threat to his life, but they are a threat to his way of living. Likewise, while a Good character will share his last scrap of food with an evil character (should some condition exist which forces them to work together), they are not friends, and the Evil character would take all the food if given the opportunity.

Sorry XXXX. I don't think Laen and XXXX can be friends any more. (You know who you are)

What a load of toss you just typed. Now, I don't know this for a fact, but I suspect XXXX is probably evil. On the other hand Laen is CG, used to be NG.( I actually asked for, and got, a hit of 20 on both axes.) Why can't Laen be friends with someone who has saved his life, made sacrifices for him etc...? I know he isn't perfect, but he has been good to me. I know OOC that he has told me a few lies, but not IC I don't.

When you start basing your friendships in the game on an OOC alignment grid then you have a problem. The "rules" are a tool to allow us to create a liveable and enjoyable envoronment, not a straitjacket set of ruels to tell us how we must act.

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The relative importance of the axes on the alignment grid

The relative importance of the axes on the alignment grid

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