Dual-classing in two spellcaster classes

[Marleh]

I think the problem, Fire Monkey, is that you have a view of how things should be and maybe that isn't necessarily the only view. Isn't there a mantra or quote somewhere on these boards, that says something like "don't tell people how to play their PCs"?

Didn't Fifty ask this question to get differing opinions?

[chamalscuro]

Epic ranks in spellcraft I don't think can reflect a sorcerer's "life experience" of picking up bits and pieces along the way. Afterall a sorcerer may only have a handful of spells they have ever been able to cast themselves, whereas any self-respecting wizard will learn hundreds of spells (perhaps even all known spells). There is no comparison between the two in that respect.

Baloney.

My sorcerer has used nearly every arcane spell available. Just because she doesn't currently have a particular spell available to cast doesn't mean she hasn't used it in the past or cast it off a scroll. A sorc can switch out as many spells as desired at level-up. Every level I have taken the opportunity to try out new spells, alter my spell mix.

[chamalscuro]

I think Fire Monkey had an interesting point actually. Why can wizards ID Sorc spells? Why can sorcs ID cleric spells? Why can wizards ID psionics? Why can psionicists ID wizard, sorc and cleric spells?

One answer: Spellcraft. Due to game mechanic issues we have one skill covering the identification of every conceivable spell or power. This probably has roots in PnP as well. My opinion is that it would be far more believable if there were seperate spellcraft type skills for each class, or at least something in that direction. But I have no illusions that this is going to change for NWN Avlis.

I agree. The 3 never should have been mixed.

[Final Shinryuu]

Sorcerers and wizards cast the same spells.
They cast them with the same gestures.
The same components.
The same verbal phrases.

Divine magic is channeled the same way as arcane, through somatic, material, and verbal components.

Spellcraft is the *training* to understand what these somatic, verbal, and material cues mean. It applies universally.

As for psionics, in PnP, there's two major ways to play psionics. They are either the same as magical effects, or totally different. If the same, then spellcraft is used for both types of effects, psionics and magic can dispell each other, and so on. If different, then there's Psicraft skill instead.

Avlis opted to use Spellcraft to identify psionics.

[Fifty]

I think the problem, Fire Monkey, is that you have a view of how things should be and maybe that isn't necessarily the only view. Isn't there a mantra or quote somewhere on these boards, that says something like "don't tell people how to play their PCs"?

Didn't Fifty ask this question to get differing opinions?

Nah, I just like hearing myself talk and reading what I type.

[tindertwiggy]

A level 40 wizard will blast a lvl 20 sorc/ level 20 wizard out of the sky any time due to the sheer focus on one set of abilities combined by an unbeatable casterlevel. However, a 20 cleric / 20 wizard can buff an entire party to godhood where the level 40 singleclass probalby has only one spell per spellevel more than a lvl 20, and that's assuming a much higher stat.

I have to disagree with the first part. The 20sorc/20wiz can counterspell the 40wiz into the dirt if she wanted to. Also spell breeches work well regardless of caster levels.

The second part is true. A dual class caster can buff a party very well.

[Marleh]

I think the problem, Fire Monkey, is that you have a view of how things should be and maybe that isn't necessarily the only view. Isn't there a mantra or quote somewhere on these boards, that says something like "don't tell people how to play their PCs"?

Didn't Fifty ask this question to get differing opinions?

Nah, I just like hearing myself talk and reading what I type.

You sir, need more gingerbread golems.

And a chocolate coated sugar bombe.

[Fire Monkey]

I think the problem, Fire Monkey, is that you have a view of how things should be and maybe that isn't necessarily the only view. Isn't there a mantra or quote somewhere on these boards, that says something like "don't tell people how to play their PCs"?

Didn't Fifty ask this question to get differing opinions?

Yes thats right, I am not telling anyone how to rp their character, just expressing an opinion. I am glad to see that in this and a few other threads this has provoked a dicussion with some interesting points. For me personally this has clarified a few things, hope it has for others too.

Personally I think the differences between sorcerers and wizards are pretty fertile ground for some good rp. I like rp situations with natural tensions between groups and Sorc V Wiz to me seems like a natural scenario for this kind of thing.

I am also happy to have some discussion on what exactly Spellcraft ranks represent. I am pretty sure that nearly every epic spellcaster in Avlis has maxed spellcraft (or just the exact amount required to cast certain spells). I am also pretty sure that before epic spells were introduced it was much rarer for people to max that skill (especially for sorcerers who often have very few skill points). Given all that I see no harm in having a discussion on exactly what it is we are all putting our skill points into.

[Nob]

There is a bit of literature being written about arcane casting classes, etc., but I'm not real sure if it's ready for public airing yet. Needless to say it addresses a few of the questions above, but I really need to vet it more thoroughly before it's ready.

[Tigg]

Just a note that some of the buffing spells on Avlis scale to level 25, and at least one to 40 (though that one's a cleric spell). So a 20/20 mix would suffer from that aspect as well. Actually though on Avlis I think such a character could be effective- yes there would be a lot of buffing spells to dole out (even considering the scaling issue), but the caster could actually buff the party and still function quite well offensively. Probably be best to get competent in one class, though, before taking up the other one, as opposed to going 50/50 all the way.

[Fire Monkey]

Just a note that some of the buffing spells on Avlis scale to level 25, and at least one to 40 (though that one's a cleric spell). So a 20/20 mix would suffer from that aspect as well. Actually though on Avlis I think such a character could be effective- yes there would be a lot of buffing spells to dole out (even considering the scaling issue), but the caster could actually buff the party and still function quite well offensively. Probably be best to get competent in one class, though, before taking up the other one, as opposed to going 50/50 all the way.

lol yes. The lvl 30 character whose 15/15 wiz/sorc don't sound so frightening

[tindertwiggy]

There's a simple distinction between Wizards and Sorcerers:



Sorcs are sexy, Wizards are ugly.

My main character currently has 22 levels in sexy and 11 levels in ugly.

I am interested by the proposed idea of distrust or a rift between sorcerors and wizards. I could see such existing rather easily. In my sorceror's earlier years his feelings on wizards were "You mean *snicker* you actually have to study to be able to do that? With a book, alone in a quiet room? HAHAHAHAHAHA." But by the time he had reached 20 he had come to respect them for their versatility and dedication to the art. An art that, despite coming naturally to him, he knew very little of intellectually. Thus he set off to study magic, and by association, himself.

Eleven wizard levels later I am very happy with the choice. While the split stats are difficult, they do not handicap me. My CHA was already sky high, and my int was respectable. Basically I use the sorc levels for damage, and the wiz levels (with their lower stat based dc's) for buffs. I can last a LOT longer in a no rest dungeon, and the amount of party members I can effectively buff has doubled. The metamagic feat crossover is nice as well.

My dc's and die based damage for some spells has suffered just a bit. Chasman pointed this out when I was thinking of taking the class. But so many spells top out damage wise at level 20 that it is not that big of a loss. As for the dc's the extra amount of spells available from the wizard levels makes up for damage lost to successful saves.

Do I miss epic spells? Not really. The only epic spells worth it in my opinion, epic mage armor and epic warding, work best for melee mages. My character has never been, nor will be, a melee mage. I would rather stand in the back and watch the meatshields do the heavy lifting. As stated the extra buffs I can now give make this even more enjoyable. I can now take a party of 8 and turn them all into unstoppable engines of destruction.

Dispelling is harder. That is true, but there are always breeches. My wizard spells get dispelled a bit easy as well, as they are cast at caster level 11, often in a dungeon with npc's suited for my overall 30 some levels. It really doesn't bug my character too much, because most often those buffs are not on him but on a meatshield.

Ultimately though, my decision to go wiz after level 20 came down to one thing... More fireball.

I would not recommend splitting caster classes in the earlier levels. I n fact I would never recommend multiclassing a caster until the high teens. You lose so much of your effectiveness. Get ninth level spells before branching out. That's my advice.

[tindertwiggy]

I am also pretty sure that before epic spells were introduced it was much rarer for people to max that skill (especially for sorcerers who often have very few skill points). Given all that I see no harm in having a discussion on exactly what it is we are all putting our skill points into.

All the casters I know have spell craft maxed not because of epic spells, but because it gives a per 5 rank bonus to saves vs spells. So if you have it maxed by level 17 you effictively have +4 to saves against all spells.

[Fifty]

I am also pretty sure that before epic spells were introduced it was much rarer for people to max that skill (especially for sorcerers who often have very few skill points). Given all that I see no harm in having a discussion on exactly what it is we are all putting our skill points into.

All the casters I know have spell craft maxed not because of epic spells, but because it gives a per 5 rank bonus to saves vs spells.

I am not maxed, but the sole reason Kered has spellcraft is for saves vs. spells. He never dispels and can't cast Epic, so those considerations are irrelevant to him.

Also, a DM once asked for spellcraft when I was expecting lore, which rather caught me out. I vowed to never let the same thing happen again.

[Aerill]

I would like to see some discussion here of the rp reasons for some of these character builds. In my mind Wizards and Sorcerers are pretty much incompatible. One represents dedication to the art, discipline, hours spent with a head in a book etc. the other represents a lazy good for nothing who just happens to be some freak who can do magicy type things without any academic understanding of how! (I might be a bit biased on this subject).

Eitherway I find it hard to see how both classes could be compatible within one character. Personally I think there should always be some sort of natural distrust between Sorcerers and Wizards, though sadly I have never really seen this played out in any RP in Avlis, especially with the big smiley happy mage family that is the Trust.

Personally I do not understand where do such generalizations come from and why are wizards and sorcerers supposed to hate each other. While their methods are radically different and would likely cause jealousy, it should as likely cause interest. I would think that a very dedicated mage would actually be very interested in learning both sorcery and wizardry. In fact if you look at some famous D&D mages they often tend to have levels in both classes. For example Simbul (sorcerer 20/archmage 2/wizard 10), one of Faerun's most fearsome sorcerers, and Alustriel (wizard 20/sorcerer 2/archmage 2), the kind ruler of the Silver Marches.

It is also a common misconception that sorcerers "just" cast spells on their whim. If you look at pretty much any "magey" D&D book you will notice that they also need to learn how to cast spells, just instead of studying new spells from books they master how to channel their powers.

[Fire Monkey]

No problem, I am quite open to being convinced otherwise. Twiggy's example is a nice one. Though as I said it fits within the one I see most easy to rp, the case where you start out as one and then shift to another. Bouncing back and forth between Sorc and Wiz each level I find harder to imagine how to rp. As I said thought thats just my opinion, it doesn't mean I'm about to go sending tells complaining to people if they do it

[downsystem]

Ive never once played a wizard on nwn but, i know one thing ive never had more fun adventuring with the wizard sorceror combo that tindertwiggy has. I mean jeez i he got so meny spells can buff to high heaven then still have enough fire power to be effective in support role, blowing things up with spells.

You really think that epic mage armor is the only good epic spell, I kinda thought the 50/- damage reduction epic feat might be a good one to have?

[Aerill]

You really think that epic mage armor is the only good epic spell, I kinda thought the 50/- damage reduction epic feat might be a good one to have?

It depends. It is not a buff you would use regularly simply because it lasts only 1 round/level and you can only cast it 1/rest, but it is a great spell for emergencies or very tough battles when you need to save your ass. I took it with my mage and am quite happy with the ability to occasionaly use it.

[Moredo]

EMA is the best feat in the game, at least in an Avlis setting. It's the equiv. of four +5 AC item, only that it doesn't take up any gear slots. That means you're free to use your Wrightbane Cloak or Cloak of Freedom in those slots instead.

It's insanely good.

[zentrinity]

Question: I am playing a sorceress and it would be very IC for her to take some druid levels.

If I do so, would she get the perk of being able to wear armor without the penalties like clerics and druids? How does this work?

Thanks!

[Fifty]

She's be able to cast druid spells whilst armoured, but her sorceror spells would be affected by the armour.

[darthjee]

well, let me put my toughts here

about spellcraft, i think sometimes when you identify the spell someone is casting, doesn`t mean you really know "oh, that`s magic missle", but more like "oh, he is conjuring some sort of energy and tagging somone as a taget of it", so if you have never seen that spell before or studied it, it would be ok calling it something else "that was awesom, just like mistic darts". Therefore, it would be ok for a soc to identify the spell (he could see how it chages the fabric of the universe) or to an arcane caster understand an divine spell even if he can`t cast that divine energy himself.

now, about the multiclassing issue, (soc/wiz)

it would be ok for a background some soc who have tried to understand his gift to stumble into a wizard willing to help him into his studing, what would make a soc/wiz of him

now, about my character,

well, i play a socerer that was ment to be a soc/ran or soc/figther in order so she could make a good battlemage. well, as the powers of a soc could be taken as a gift, a blood thing, then a soc could take class in anything he wanted, and play any role in a party, so after i met raen, i decided that sci would follow the ways of a bard

being a bard/soc has the problem of having only low lvls spells (6 bard/ 6 soc gives her access to 3th lvl spells only), but she has lots of low lvl spells, what balances the soc problem. she also has the song what is very powerfull while in a group, and she has lots of buffing spells what is good for when going solo or grouping, so i guess i am happy with her (altough i miss some high lvl spells)

well, that`s my opinion

[darthjee]

She's be able to cast druid spells whilst armoured, but her sorceror spells would be affected by the armour.

wear light armor

5 - 10% is not a big deal when you are trying to buff, just when you want to blow things up

[scribe]

5 - 10% is not a big deal when you are trying to buff, just when you want to blow things up

When you are buffing, you slip into your pajamas for a minute.

edit: sorry, fixed quote. Twice now.

[Trueguardian]

5 - 10% is not a big deal when you are trying to buff, just when you want to blow things up

When you are buffing, you slip into your pajamas for a minute.

Real bad form in my opinion. Take the feat and the hit if you want to be a mage and wear armor. It is cheesing as far as I am concerned if you don't.