Knockdown

[Rhissaerk Jalesh]

Spells always 'hit', IE: No to hit roll, no missing due to concealment, blah blah blah. Not complaining or anything, I wouldn't have it any other way. Anyway, not much will come of debating it, so let's just say...we can all kill eachother in nasty ways. *grins*

[korak]

Grunt wins.

Mages seem to always be the first to bitch about something that compromises their uberness.

Yeah, I said it.

Well, it would be odd if non-mages were the first to complain about something that compromises the abilities of mages. Presumably fighters would be the first to complain about something that compromises fighter abilites, rogues would be the first to complain about something that compromises rogue abilities, and so on.

*shrugs*

Anyway, how about trying to avoid turning this thread into yet another thread bitching about something? I wanted info. I've got it. If people want to discuss what they'd like to see, let them. Apparently no changes could be made anyway, so why worry about it? No reason for combative remarks.

Hey, Kraven is a Barbarian with Knockdown and he is complaining about it. I just think it is kind of goofy.....but he sure does like to use it.

[szabot]

Spells always 'hit', IE: No to hit roll, no missing due to concealment, blah blah blah. Not complaining or anything, I wouldn't have it any other way. Anyway, not much will come of debating it, so let's just say...we can all kill eachother in nasty ways. *grins*

Ah, I thought you meant that they always "work." Some spells do require a touch attack, but I don't think we were talking about any of those anyway.

[Fuzz]

Anyway, not much will come of debating it, so let's just say...we can all kill eachother in nasty ways. *grins*

Damn straight.

[Tigg]

Well... I don't know, it doesn't seem to me like KD owns mages as much as one might think,

From what I've seen you can get the spell going so it goes off right as soon as you get up at the beginning of the next round, it makes an attack of opportunity I think but most mages have high concentration anyways. Maybe someone else has noticed it? The animation ends up looking a little weird... basically the mage is already back on their butt before the spellcasting animation can show, so you just see this quick little flash. But, assuming it wasn't interrupted due to concentration failure, the spell will go off, animation or no... therefore it just becomes a question of spellchoice and concentration. I think it's because a spell counts as a movement rather than an attack or something technical like that.

But... hmmm... I don't play a mage so maybe I should not be noting this, lol

[Darkfire]

My main is a mage, and I think KD is very fair. If you don't want to get KD and die, don't get hit in the first place, put points into disipline, and there are a few other things to help as well. In my opinion, mages should be stronger, and i think they are. KD is about the only thing that ~can~ save a fighter. But then again, I don't remeber who I am quoting here>>>

"but once a mage runs out of spells, they are a silly boy with a stick." (( not an exact quote or anything ))

once a mage runs low on spells, they are screwed. Fighters don't run out of energy or anything like that. Fighters have great endurance and fight and can keep on fighting. Mages can kick the crap out of almost anything but will run out of spells if they keep up that pace.

Mages do have an advantage, mages are stronger than fighters at the start. Either way, Knockdown is fair.

[Sickocrow]

I hate that 'DmKILL' ability that those cheesy DM build avatars have, no bloody hope of avoiding that.

[Grunt]

Anyway, not much will come of debating it, so let's just say...we can all kill eachother in nasty ways. *grins*

Damn straight.

Word.

[Yau]

any class with discipline class skill can resist it quite easily if the knockdown was from an opponent of the same level.

plus most mages i see are multiclassed with fighter so knockdown doesnt seem to be that effective in CvC anyway

[Dirk Cutlass]

any class with discipline class skill can resist it quite easily if the knockdown was from an opponent of the same level.

plus most mages i see are multiclassed with fighter so knockdown doesnt seem to be that effective in CvC anyway

But discipline is cross-class for most non-fighter classes. Unless you are rogue (who get 6 + INT modifier skill points per level) or a mage with very high INT, then you will never get enough points in discipline to beat a decent fighter.

I have a ranger at the moment, they get discipline as a class skill, but I can't afford to points in it as there are many more things to put points into higher on my priority list.

Better to increase AC and not be hot in the first place, or to use concealment e.g. Improved Inivs. When I played a mage and used to go against those damn dwarf mercs with knockdown, then my Improved Invis saved me countless times.

If I wanted to change KD, then I'd make it a full-round action so at least you only had one attempt per round. That would seem a reasonable compromise. Totally impossible though, these things are all hard-coded. We don't have the luxury of changing them to suit like with spells.

[Yau]

i havent seen many knockdown creatures yet. and the ones who do only use it when you have below a certain amount of AC.

so if your char doesnt do CvC then discipline isnt too important.

[loki70]

Grunt wins.

Mages seem to always be the first to bitch about something that compromises their uberness.

Yeah, I said it.

Well, it would be odd if non-mages were the first to complain about something that compromises the abilities of mages. Presumably fighters would be the first to complain about something that compromises fighter abilites, rogues would be the first to complain about something that compromises rogue abilities, and so on.

*shrugs*

Anyway, how about trying to avoid turning this thread into yet another thread bitching about something? I wanted info. I've got it. If people want to discuss what they'd like to see, let them. Apparently no changes could be made anyway, so why worry about it? No reason for combative remarks.

Actually, KD and IKD can be used against nearly all classes. Fighters and barbs have a horrible will save, so charm them, hold them, make them yours. Hell, I would be really pissed if at 21st level I still got pwned by first and second level spells. At 20th level the uber fighter (you know, the one that has 0 points in the mental stats) has a 6 will save. A 20th level mage generally has a 16 DC for their first level spells (sometimes higher). Go out, try it sometime.

[downsystem]

I personally used knockdown a bit but it seemed to never work i guess i never really tried it against mages. I personally didnt like the fact i couldnt use knockdown on all creatures. I also didnt like the fact you had to click then locate a creature like you do with healing someone. Thats just my preferance though.

And mages shouldnt complain fighters have such a low will save usually anyways and can be screweed mentally easily. I have three magic items to adjust my will save so it has a +6 adj to the normal stat, and i still get screwed my various different mental effects, which most of the time incompasitate me me way longer then one round that knockdown effects a mage.

[lloydy]

I use knockdown alot and if you time it just right you can knock down on the first attack of every round and people just dont get up

So basically Kockdown is nasty if Knockdown users attack bonus is higher defenders disipline .......... thats is if they hit of course

But thats the advantage of being a fighter if they get that close to you, you should be screwed

Was always the same in D&D Mages are great at range crap at melee

If a mage Knows a fighter is going to attack he should kill the fighter before he gets near him there are lots of spells that can take down your average fighter or stop him so you can go invisable and haste if you get into melle with a fighter mages Should get thier arses kicked

Thats my opinion

lloydy

ps flame away

[Jonezie]

i havent seen many knockdown creatures yet. and the ones who do only use it when you have below a certain amount of AC.

so if your char doesnt do CvC then discipline isnt too important.

Muahaha....

[Darkfire]

I use knockdown alot and if you time it just right you can knock down on the first attack of every round and people just dont get up

So basically Kockdown is nasty if Knockdown users attack bonus is higher defenders disipline .......... thats is if they hit of course

But thats the advantage of being a fighter if they get that close to you, you should be screwed

Was always the same in D&D Mages are great at range crap at melee

If a mage Knows a fighter is going to attack he should kill the fighter before he gets near him there are lots of spells that can take down your average fighter or stop him so you can go invisable and haste if you get into melle with a fighter mages Should get thier arses kicked

Thats my opinion

lloydy

ps flame away

exactly what i said
then there is Devistating critical. Yeah, that one hurts heheh yay EMA

[korak]

I hate that 'DmKILL' ability that those cheesy DM build avatars have, no bloody hope of avoiding that.

*sees the word 'DmKILL' and wonders about that. Maybe if his character could get this ability, he could then take out the DM (from the sound of it), and loot him dry.

I love knockdown. Very nice when you get into a bunch of elementals that you can get in a narrow hallway.

any class with discipline class skill can resist it quite easily if the knockdown was from an opponent of the same level.

plus most mages i see are multiclassed with fighter so knockdown doesnt seem to be that effective in CvC anyway

Not sure about the Discipline. The Discipline is 'discipline skill + strength bonus'. The attack would have 'Attack + Strength bonus + weapon + any buffs + weapon focus's', so I would think it could get quite a bit higher than the discipline, unless I am misunderstandng something.

i havent seen many knockdown creatures yet. and the ones who do only use it when you have below a certain amount of AC.

so if your char doesnt do CvC then discipline isnt too important.

I have seen too things many with Knockdown. All it takes is one knockdown in the wrong place ~LRC~ and have fun gettng that body back.

[mortzestus]

Not sure about the Discipline. The Discipline is 'discipline skill + strength bonus'. The attack would have 'Attack + Strength bonus + weapon + any buffs + weapon focus's', so I would think it could get quite a bit higher than the discipline, unless I am misunderstandng something.

Don't forget that you can use items to boost your Discipline skill as well.

[Jonezie]

Not sure about the Discipline. The Discipline is 'discipline skill + strength bonus'. The attack would have 'Attack + Strength bonus + weapon + any buffs + weapon focus's', so I would think it could get quite a bit higher than the discipline, unless I am misunderstandng something.

Don't forget that you can use items to boost your Discipline skill as well.

And strength buffs, bard song buffs, skill focuses (Epic Skill Focus = +10 to discipline), etc. SKills can be gotten much higher than AB. At epic levels, it's possible to have a skill well over 50 or 60.

Example: Lvl 27, maxxed Discipline = 30
Buffed STR of 26 = +8
Epic Skill Focus: Discipline: +10
Greater GLoves of Discipline: +6

There's 54 already, with only one item

[pedsdmd]

exactly what i said
then there is Devistating critical. Yeah, that one hurts heheh yay EMA
_________________

I always felt that devastating crit should be a wepon master Feat only

[downsystem]

Ill have to agree on that dev crit. Weapon masters dont have hardly any special abilities and that ki strike they got is a freaking joke. The only reason anyone takes them is for the added multiplier and increased critical range. I personally dont think that is hardly enough to justify calling a weapon master a prestige class. It be nice if the weapon master had that ability added to their free abilities and give it to them at like say 13th level in weapon master or something like that.

[Yau]

hehe so what are fighters and barbs left with? weap masters get nice critical bonuses as well as attack bonuses. which are very tasty

[pedsdmd]

hehe so what are fighters and barbs left with? weap masters get nice critical bonuses as well as attack bonuses. which are very tasty

Fighters are left with more feats.

Barbs are left with enormous rages

for all the feats and levels it takes to get those puny increases it aint worth it IMO

[Yau]

haha those critical bonuses kick ass sorry but if i could take weaponmaster i would have done

[mortzestus]

Barbs are left with enormous rages

Rage is total and utterly worthless in Avlis after the addition of militant level bonuses and gear with bonuses to stats being not so hard to acquire anymore.

for all the feats and levels it takes to get those puny increases it aint worth it IMO

I am going to disagree here. While it's true that the benefits of taking more than seven weaponmaster levels are argueable (even though getting up to +6 to hit with your weapon of choice with 28 weaponmaster levels is not a small benefit) and that Ki Damage is worthless, Increased Multiplier and Ki Critical aren't puny increases. You just need to take a look at what certain Avlissian weaponmasters can do: 100+ damage with a katana? So much for a puny increase.