The Shadowdancer Epidemic

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:58 pm

FunkOdyssey wrote:Kinda defeats the idea that stealthy = shadowdancer doesnt it?

No not at all. Just means that one group of PC's haven't taken that PrC. There can be a whole host of reasons why they haven't taken it yet.

But if you look at the Shadow Dancer class, it is clearly designed around a stealth based character. So if you're playing a character who's focused on stealth, it makes perfect to take the SD PrC. That doesn't mean everyone must or even should.

Bottom line is, it is a question of if people are taking this PrC for the right reasons or not.

Bear · Post by **Bear** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:02 pm

WrathOG777 wrote:My opinion on this is not specific to shadowdancer at all.

Any of these probably need some looking at if they prove true.
- I think any PrC that is picked up for the abilities instead of the RP is bad.

Agreed

WrathOG777 wrote:- I think any PrC is overused if its number is even 1/5th of the folks who have all the prereqs.

Isn't it really only overused (by your criteria above) if people are taking it for non RP reasons?

WrathOG777 wrote:I think the holywarriors should have precidence in implementation over the others. These have been mentioned as needing to be part of avlis since far before a NWN PrC option existed.

I remember this when it happened. The SD Prestige class has always been one of the most requested classes in Avlis. The requests for the class came up early and were consistent. I think the team also needs to consider what people want.... not just what the world needs. If there aren't any characters running around saying I want to be an Avenger... then that can be put on hold IMHO.

WrathOG777 wrote: I also think that all PrCs should require just as much IC dedication and work as holywarriors. Meaning PrCs require a guild membership, approval by that guild to become one, quests from that guild to prove worthyness, then only can the automated quest even be taken.

Interesting idea. The problem is that there are not guilds set up for many of these classes. Where would a Dwarven Defender go? How about a weapons' master. You can't make people go to holy orders as they may not have beliefs in that god. Still an interesting idea.

Bear

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:05 pm

FunkOdyssey wrote:I received a suggestion from someone who wished to remain anonymous that taking ANY PrC should require DM approval first, before the PC can take the scripted quest.

Will not happen, period. We talked about this extensively prior to SoU coming into place and decided we would not require PC's to get DM approval for PrC's. There are simply to many PC's out there, and not enough DM's for this to be practical.

Also not all PrC's would make sense to have a guild membership be required. Some are simply a skillset, or focus on one aspect of a character. We will not require membership in a guild to take lvls in a PrC, without a logical IC reason to do so.

Sickocrow · Post by **Sickocrow** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:09 pm

Anyone who has even been in a fight with the mistress girls knows how bullshit powerful this class is. Not to mention the sereg versions.

My most powerful fighter, and a few others almost got cleaned up by one. Thats right! One Mistress assassin ( DM controlled ) almost took out 6 Characters. If it wasn't for an angry summoned dire bear we would have had not a hope of finding her, let alone winning the fight.

She'd appear right next to me. Sneak attack me and I'd knockdown her. No point. She'd disappear anyhow, don't worry about the fact I'd just smashed her teeth in with a twin sword.

Sicko-

Bear · Post by **Bear** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:13 pm

Sickocrow wrote:My most powerful fighter, and a few others almost got cleaned up by one. Thats right! One Mistress assassin ( DM controlled ) almost took out 6 Characters. If it wasn't for an angry summoned dire bear we would have had not a hope of finding her, let alone winning the fight.

DM controlled characters always kick my teeth in. Doesn't matter if its a shadow dancer, fighter, sereg, dire penguin, mage, lizardman, goblin,... whatever. If the DM wants to beat you around for a bit they will.

Bear

Tharliss · Post by **Tharliss** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:14 pm

FunkOdyssey wrote:
- I think any PrC is overused if its number is even 1/5th of the folks who have all the prereqs.
This is the true standard by which the overpopulation of shadowdancers can be easily seen. How many of those who meet the prerequisites have taken it?

I have to disagree with your logic here. If a rogue decides to use his limited and valuable feat selection and skill points to meet the prereqs for this class, wouldn't it make sense for him/her to take a prestige class that involves being stealthy, even in combat, which would require a tumbling/evasive style?

These people have sacrificed other options to gear themselves towards a prestige class.

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:17 pm

Vanor wrote:
FunkOdyssey wrote:Kinda defeats the idea that stealthy = shadowdancer doesnt it?
Just means that one group of PC's haven't taken that PrC. There can be a whole host of reasons why they haven't taken it yet.

Like most stealthy characters dont do supernatural shadowhumping and have the ability to summon shadows from the plane of shadow? That sounds like a likely reason to me. lol

Vanor wrote:But if you look at the Shadow Dancer class, it is clearly designed around a stealth based character. So if you're playing a character who's focused on stealth, it makes perfect [sense] to take the SD PrC.

It definitely makes perfect sense for a stealth character. If you take shadowdancer, you can hide in plain sight and tear every other living thing on Avlis to pieces with it. But is this the kind of perfect sense that should motivate us? Your next statement says it best:

Vanor wrote:Bottom line is, it is a question of if people are taking this PrC for the right reasons or not.

Ziopoth · Post by **Ziopoth** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:18 pm

Sickocrow wrote:Anyone who has even been in a fight with the mistress girls knows how bullshit powerful this class is. Not to mention the sereg versions.

My most powerful fighter, and a few others almost got cleaned up by one. Thats right! One Mistress assassin ( DM controlled ) almost took out 6 Characters. If it wasn't for an angry summoned dire bear we would have had not a hope of finding her, let alone winning the fight.

She'd appear right next to me. Sneak attack me and I'd knockdown her. No point. She'd disappear anyhow, don't worry about the fact I'd just smashed her teeth in with a twin sword.

Sicko-

This happens on a regular basis. Especially when sereg are involved. I've been wiped out along with 6+ ~20th lvl characters. A DM is going to do what he wants to get his point across reguardless. Get used to it.

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:19 pm

Guilds that make IC sence are plenty and available. Many guilds could offer each PrC. The channels are there for RP. I would just like to see these Prestige classes be something that are prestigious. I would like to know folks work to get them, and that each one abtained is a group effort that invovled some interaction. Every single new member to one of these classes should be celebrated by some organization and there should be an on-going meaning and purpose behind this life style choice.

I feel too many have let things like shadow dancer and arcane archer become little more the a passing mention and a golf clap. These should be monumental character developement paths.

There are many folks running around that want to be holy warriors and cannot. All the major nine are forming guilds to help this happen.

Shadow dancers: There is Raven, shem...whatever, LoD, and the red somethingsorotherthatliveundermikona that could be given the right. Maybe the hands and steal too.

Dwarven defenders should have to be in the dwarf brigade, nuf sed.

Assassins are Aarilax business, he is the god of murder. There is a group, even if few know about it.

Pale masters should be ebony sponsored.

Arcane archers and white necromancer could be all of the mage guilds.

Shapeshifters: shem..whatever, and all holy orders of dieties that allow druids.

Weapon master: Monk guilds, holy orders that support monks, and AAAA.

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:27 pm

WrathOG777 wrote:Guilds that make IC sence are plenty and available.

All your doing is coming up with a lists of groups that make sense to have a PC of that nature in it. It is not the same thing as a logical IC reason why you have to be part of that group to learn these ablities.

These should be monumental character developement paths.

That is an opinion, while valid, not shared by Avlis as a whole.

[qutoe]Weapon master: Monk guilds, holy orders that support monks, and AAAA.[/quote]

A great example of what I was saying. Monks are not the best suited class for weapon masters, fighters are. The AAAA makes weapons, and has no special combat training or ablities. Holy orders also are about following the teachings of god, not devoting yourself to a given weapon and becoming a master of it.

So all you did, is come up with a list of groups that might make sense to have these PC's in it. But not a IC reason why you would have to join this group to learn something.

This thread is quickly becoming a few people trying to force their opinion about how PC's should be played on everyone else. Such a thing never has, and never will fly on Avlis. It is not up to a Player to tell someone else how to play their character.

If you want to discuss the ablities of SD's, or any other PrC feel free. But talking about if there is too many of them, if people are taking them for the right reasons, or most everything else brought up here, is a waste of bandwith.

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:29 pm

Vanor wrote: Some are simply a skillset, or focus on one aspect of a character.

THAT is exactly what I want to see us get away from. No Prestige class is simply a skill set. They are meant to be new avenues for character developement.

Looking at them as a skill set is begging for a PrC to be taken for metagaming instead of RP.

keikobad · Post by **keikobad** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:31 pm

keikobad wrote:*shrugs*

The "problem" (in so far as there is one) isn't really with the HiPS feat, but with the balance between Hiding and Spotting skills. Many people are able to get their Hide/MS rolls in a range beyond the Spot/Listen rolls of other players OR monsters, making 1 level of shadowdancer a very powerful thing for them. If you don't have the gear, and monsters see you half the time you try to hide, then HiPS isn't so attractive.

As is being discussed in the True Seeing thread (the corollary of this complaint), balancing the gear for that is not an easy task. SoU and HotU introduced a lot of abilities which weren't taken into account when Avlis was designed. Avlis withstood the weapon and armor enhancement spells fairly well. Greater Sanctuary would have been another big source of complaints if it actually worked like it was supposed to. HiPS mileage varies depending on your gear.

There is an "action-mode constant" or some switch like that in NWN that apparently limits a PCs ability to use certain feats in certain situations, like Expertise while casting spells, etc. Dunno how it might affect HiPS-- could try testing it.

I'm not really worried though. If it gets really out of hand, I'd expect some quick fix like a potion that gives you the old True Sight for a turn or so. Still, there's a certain ring to "The Shadowdancer Epidemic." Maybe we should pass it on to R.A. Salvatore as a book idea?

Oops, hope I didn't get anyone's hopes up. Georg Zeller had described a variable with that name, but the only one I found was a MODULE_VAR_AI_STOP_EXPERTISE_ABUSE which is specific to using Expertise while casting spells. Hey, we gonna turn that one on?

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:34 pm

WrathOG777 wrote:THAT is exactly what I want to see us get away from. No Prestige class is simply a skill set. They are meant to be new avenues for character developement.

Looking at them as a skill set is begging for a PrC to be taken for metagaming instead of RP.

Are you questioning the way PrC's should be played? That doesn't fly on Avlis...

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:37 pm

WrathOG777 wrote:No Prestige class is simply a skill set. They are meant to be new avenues for character developement.

What is in a name? Just because they're called prestige classes, does not automatically mean they must cary some special prestige. The fact is, that in some cases, they are really nothing more then a skill set, or a focus on a narrow aspect of a character.

Shadow Dancer = Stealth
Palemaster = Necromancer
Weapon Master = Focus on one weapon.

Other PrC's however cary preset IC conditions, like the red dragon deciple, or the various holy warriors.

Looking at them as a skill set is begging for a PrC to be taken for metagaming instead of RP.

This is no more true, then saying the same thing about Muticlassing with various core classes.

The Sveg · Post by **The Sveg** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:51 pm

This is not the position of the Team, but it comes from me as a player and DM, so it makes it Sveg's opinion.

I agree with Funk on this. There IS an epidemic.

There are quite a few SDs out there. I truly doubt that this number would be that high if True Seeing was not handled as it is right now.

I do not agree on Funk on the opinion concerning the easy way the PrC is gained as this is what we (the Team) plan to do with ALL PrCs. Unfortunately, although it IS the best option, we cannot have DM intervention to authorize the acquisition of PrCs. The numbers of the players and the DMs forbid this.

But I realy believe that it is quite true that the HIPS (heh, I am actually learning all those abreviations as time goes by...) combined with the way we treat True Seeing in Avlis has generated many SDs. It is a formidable combination that cannot be easily countered.

If I had a rogue character at this point I would definitely go for SD. Hmm..I think that if I had a spare class in any character I had I would go for SD.

Jordicus · Post by **Jordicus** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:55 pm

keikobad wrote: only one I found was a MODULE_VAR_AI_STOP_EXPERTISE_ABUSE which is specific to using Expertise while casting spells. Hey, we gonna turn that one on?

who says we haven't?

The Sveg · Post by **The Sveg** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:56 pm

WrathOG777 wrote:...and the red somethingsorotherthatliveundermikona

LOL

Sorry...could not restrain myself...

LOL

Chasman · Post by **Chasman** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:58 pm

Is there any way to change the HiPS feat so that the SD doesn't get it till 5th lvl or later ?

Seems to me that the real issue here is that the HiPS feat is available without having to invest anything into the class. I see taking lvls in a class as being an extension of the RPing you did before and after taking a lvl in that particualr class.

As Funk has pointed out, are people RPing the class they are taking before they take it ?

I think that if there's a way to make it a different lvl before you can get HiPS that you'll see less abuse, potential and real, than if you if you leave the class as is.

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:02 pm

Indeed, HIPS is the ultimate ability of the shadowdancer, how can it be given at level 1? Its like Bioware is BEGGING everyone to take just 1-2 levels of it. I actually think something like level 10 would be more appropriate, all things considered.

Pekarion · Post by **Pekarion** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:03 pm

yup, I agree, hips should be at lvl 5 or something, the same has been said about rogues, people that take one lvl rogue for the sneak attack, I wouldn't mind that being implemented

keikobad · Post by **keikobad** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:04 pm

The Sveg wrote: If I had a rogue character at this point I would definitely go for SD. Hmm..I think that if I had a spare class in any character I had I would go for SD.

Would you get it if you thought your PC would only have access to store-bought Hide/MS gear?

That, essentialy, was what stopped me from pursuing the class. As much as it might have made RP and CvC sense for my character.

Why worry about guilds/DM approval for taking the class? IF you could only get the uber Hide/MS gear from DMs, then that essentially constitutes DM approval to use HiPS in a way that has a serious impact on Avlis.

The Sveg · Post by **The Sveg** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:05 pm

Careful now though, you are slowly falling into the dreadful trap that is called 'balance of classes'.

This does not belong in Avlis. That IS the opinion of the Team.

Extreme cases are being handled, such as the stupid IGMS but let us not slip into that trip that is called class balancing.

choraldances · Post by **choraldances** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:08 pm

The Sveg wrote:This is not the position of the Team, but it comes from me as a player and DM, so it makes it Sveg's opinion.

I agree with Funk on this. There IS an epidemic.

There are quite a few SDs out there. I truly doubt that this number would be that high if True Seeing was not handled as it is right now.

I do not agree on Funk on the opinion concerning the easy way the PrC is gained as this is what we (the Team) plan to do with ALL PrCs. Unfortunately, although it IS the best option, we cannot have DM intervention to authorize the acquisition of PrCs. The numbers of the players and the DMs forbid this.

But I realy believe that it is quite true that the HIPS (heh, I am actually learning all those abreviations as time goes by...) combined with the way we treat True Seeing in Avlis has generated many SDs. It is a formidable combination that cannot be easily countered.

If I had a rogue character at this point I would definitely go for SD. Hmm..I think that if I had a spare class in any character I had I would go for SD.

I TOTALLY agree with you. In matter of personal opinion as well.

There is an overflow of SD's. Especially only ONE level of SD's.

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:10 pm

Jordicus wrote:
keikobad wrote: only one I found was a MODULE_VAR_AI_STOP_EXPERTISE_ABUSE which is specific to using Expertise while casting spells. Hey, we gonna turn that one on?
who says we haven't?

What about the casters that use still and quickened spells in combat? That should not stop them from useing melee abilities like expertice.

Emprod · Post by **Emprod** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:17 pm

WrathOG777 wrote:
Jordicus wrote:
keikobad wrote: only one I found was a MODULE_VAR_AI_STOP_EXPERTISE_ABUSE which is specific to using Expertise while casting spells. Hey, we gonna turn that one on?
who says we haven't?
What about the casters that use still and quickened spells in combat? That should not stop them from useing melee abilities like expertice.

Expertise doesn't cancel when you cast a spell.

That's the bug. But it's a different discussion.

Don't hijack, you bastard!!!