Death and how people view it

Abdul_Caffeine · Post by **Abdul_Caffeine** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 10:12 am

Occurred to me on a sleepless night and too much caffeine.

Question One:
Do all people go to death planes and have the option to return? If so, this'd explain a lot of the magically-respawning NPCs.

Question Two:
If so, and if death is something that can be only temporary, then what does this mean for the social view of death? I mean, in our world, it's permanent and so death is a powerful, emotional thing, but if it's just the metaphysical equivalent of going around to Auntie's for a while, then would killing be viewed much more casually?

Question Three:
Doesn't this make the whole concept of assassination entirely pointless?

Tangleroot · Post by **Tangleroot** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 10:23 am

If you want to get out of Hades, for example, you need to have an incredibly powerfull will to claw your way through the masses of the apathetic dead and get out. I'd imagine that most who go there (NPCs) just adapt to that mass and never get out.

Garand · Post by **Garand** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 10:31 am

Arborea has a rocking tavern and all the Mellowsmoke you can inhale ... I can't wait for a group of Chaotic good hard core party people to decide to get themselves all killed so they can go to Dru'El's Great Big Bad Ass Bar-B-Cue Knock Down Drag Out Revel Till the Sun is Drunk to Party in the Sky TM. Whoa. Excellent. *air guitar*

*runs off to make a petition to change the name of the Hand of Dru'El to "Wyld Stallions"*

kombinat · Post by **kombinat** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 11:01 am

Not a Team member, so this is just my take on it, but had thoughts on the same subject...
PCs are meant to be a "cut above" the masses in some way or another, at least in every RP game I've played it's been like that.. some of the NPC villains also experience resurrection. Tollgaroth talks about "the embarrasment of visiting Maleki's plane again", so I'd say that does say that at least some of the NPCs do visit the death planes and choose to come back. The planes aren't that crowded though (usually), so I'd expect the unwashed masses don't go there, only those that are unusual in some way.. ie PCs and some NPCs..

Scurvy_Platypus · Post by **Scurvy_Platypus** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 11:34 am

Keep in mind there's a bit of a difference between what you see of the world and how much of the world is "really" there. For example, in PnP even though you adventure in a tiny part of the world, all the rest of the world is generally assumed to be there. The DM doesn't have to tell you each and every single name of the however many people live in his world.

In Avlis, we've got a couple of things happening. First, we've got the issue of the fact that this is a PW. Most games are based around 1 to 10 people. A single DM controls it, and it's easy enough to scale things. Sure the party might run into the occasional NPC party of adventurers, but in general it's the PCs that are the cat's meow.

In Avlis we've got a bit of a skewed population as well. While I can't comment on what 3E has to say about things, I know that the 2nd Ed. Dungeon Master Option: High Level Campaigns states that in a general population of 5,120 you'll have one 10th level person. And in a general population of 1,310,720 you will have one 18th level character. I'm betting you haven't seen 5 million NPCs around to support the 5 20th levels out there (actually I'm sure there's more than that, but 5 is a safe number.

)

Why do PCs get to come back from the dead? Because they're special in some way. It's not really explained in game, and it shouldn't be. Coming back from the dead is not a "common" thing, and depsite the way that some people might act most reasonable characters would be afraid of dying just like everyone else. I'd argue that the more they die, the more concerned they'd be...heck if coming back to life isn't a right but a special dispensation, then you've got to wonder just when your god is going to say "Screw it monkey boy, you had your shot your soul is mine"

The limits of technology prevent the 1 million people in a city, just like you'll have several people that look alike except for a different floaty name, and different clothes. But just like we look past that and assume that there's other things that distinguish one character from another despite them looking exactly alike, so too do we need to do the same thing inregards to how many people live in M'Chek and what's everyone's view of Death.

Cath · Post by **Cath** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 11:49 am

Why should my girl be afraid to die?

She should be even less afraid than the average person because she's seen what lies beyond life.
She goes to a pretty peaceful place and though there are a lot of things she'd miss, no - just one really and he'd be coming after eventually - she knows it's a good place to end up.
Of course she wants to live her time but when it's up it's up and what happens then is nothing she fears.

If she on the other hand went to Hades or some other less friendly place..she'd fear death.

kombinat · Post by **kombinat** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 12:10 pm

Damn it would be funny coming across Tollgaroth doing the death quest in Maleki's plane some day..

KinX · Post by **KinX** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 12:21 pm

kombinat wrote:Damn it would be funny coming across Tollgaroth doing the death quest in Maleki's plane some day..

Tollgaroth: Watch me do this death quest with my eyes closed and hands tied behind my back.

diddeecoy · Post by **diddeecoy** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 1:44 pm

Cath wrote:Why should my girl be afraid to die?

She should be even less afraid than the average person because she's seen what lies beyond life.
She goes to a pretty peaceful place and though there are a lot of things she'd miss, no - just one really and he'd be coming after eventually - she knows it's a good place to end up.
Of course she wants to live her time but when it's up it's up and what happens then is nothing she fears.

If she on the other hand went to Hades or some other less friendly place..she'd fear death.

I don't think you can let your character's assume to know where they're going if they die. Alignment info is all occ .. and past experience is no good, because it can change. I play one character, who's been to 3 different death planes so far. Death should be feared, ic'ly, no matter who I think.

Tangleroot · Post by **Tangleroot** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 1:47 pm

All my characters fear death, even the insane ones. One day the gods could decide: you're not getting out of the deathplane ever again. Better not take any chances.[/code]

Mistcaller · Post by **Mistcaller** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 1:56 pm

IMO, you do not fear something that you know, unless it is indeed fearsome or painful to you...
People in RL fear death, just because they dont know what is going to happen afterwards. On the other hand, they fear and avoid getting hurt, because they ~know~ its painful...

Cath · Post by **Cath** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:01 pm

diddeecoy wrote:
Cath wrote:Why should my girl be afraid to die?

She should be even less afraid than the average person because she's seen what lies beyond life.
She goes to a pretty peaceful place and though there are a lot of things she'd miss, no - just one really and he'd be coming after eventually - she knows it's a good place to end up.
Of course she wants to live her time but when it's up it's up and what happens then is nothing she fears.

If she on the other hand went to Hades or some other less friendly place..she'd fear death.
I don't think you can let your character's assume to know where they're going if they die. Alignment info is all occ .. and past experience is no good, because it can change. I play one character, who's been to 3 different death planes so far. Death should be feared, ic'ly, no matter who I think.

Not really. It's all about belief.
Like many religious people in RL that don't fear death as they are sure they will go to heaven.
She has never ended up anywhere but Elysium and has no reason to believe she ever will.
Alignment shifts and their consequences are more OOC to me than assuming things will remain as they are.
Different of course for a character that has experienced it.

All my characters fear death, even the insane ones. One day the gods could decide: you're not getting out of the deathplane ever again. Better not take any chances.

But that's just it - if she's not getting out of the deathplane...eternity on green meadows is all she knows - if things get different if she dies permanently there is no way that she would know that.
I would fear the pain before dying more than what happens if you actually die as things are for her.

But of course - there is always the fear of being separated from the ones you love...
So healthy respect and every intention to avoid it but no deeply rooted fear.

Abdul_Caffeine · Post by **Abdul_Caffeine** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:14 pm

But of course - there is always the fear of being separated from the ones you love...
So healthy respect and every intention to avoid it but no deeply rooted fear.

But if, based on past experience, getting one's head cut off is just a temporary thing, then surely there would not even be the fear of separation.

There's a temporary separation, but everybody does that all the time. Nobody's afraid to go down to the shops because that means temporary separation from their friends/family.

Cath · Post by **Cath** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:21 pm

Abdul_Caffeine wrote:
But of course - there is always the fear of being separated from the ones you love...
So healthy respect and every intention to avoid it but no deeply rooted fear.
But if, based on past experience, getting one's head cut off is just a temporary thing, then surely there would not even be the fear of separation.

There's a temporary separation, but everybody does that all the time. Nobody's afraid to go down to the shops because that means temporary separation from their friends/family.

Separated as in not coming back which always must be a possibility to my character and then being stuck in my deathplane without him until he dies of old age some 500 years later or however long he will live.
That's scary.

Croton · Post by **Croton** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:34 pm

I'm not a team member so all of this is just my thoughts, nothing more:

After thinking about the death system I'd have to say that the XP system could be a little backward. I think that when you die, you should actually gain experience rather than lose it. If you make a mistake in combat and die, you learn, if you set off a trap and die, you learn, etc. On the same note however, there should be some toll on your body for dieing. Maybe for every 10 times you die you lose a point of Con, a skill point, or you move a little slower. Maybe your Cha should drop because of all the scars. I don't know.

From a, In Character Feeling standpoint on the current system, I guess the biggest thing to fear is that all your stuff won't be there when you get back. Other than that it is just a pain in the ass.

From an assassination standpoint you could say that since you are brought back to life by devine influence, if a NPC is assassinated, they are not brought back because the devine influence chose not to.

Abdul_Caffeine · Post by **Abdul_Caffeine** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:46 pm

Maybe for every 10 times you die you lose a point of Con, a skill point, or you move a little slower. Maybe your Cha should drop because of all the scars. I don't know.

You don't scar from death blows, surely? I mean, if you get a scar from it then that means that your non-dead state comes from natural body healing processes (that's where scars come from.)

Natural body healing processes are notoriously bad at healing decapitation, implosion and other such things. So the fact that we heal from them indicates that normal healing isn't the factor in question.

Back on topic:

Separated as in not coming back which always must be a possibility to my character and then being stuck in my deathplane without him until he dies of old age some 500 years later or however long he will live.
That's scary.

a) How many times has your character been to the death plane?

b) How many times have they come back?

c) How many people does she know personally who haven't come back?

d) Is she at all good at spotting patterns?

Cath · Post by **Cath** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 3:01 pm

You assume that the adventurers that we the players live through are the norm - they are not.
She has seen her mother and the one that raised her die and not come back.
She grew up in M'Chek where every home has someone not returning from the war.
A world like Avlis should be full of normal people dying normal deaths - in a city you should see funerals every day.

Knowing that the gods let you go back should not make you assume they always will - maybe once you have served an unknown purpose your time is up.
And every time you abuse that by carelessly dying again one might feel even more worried...

Post by **Lycanthropy** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 5:10 pm

I liked to think of it this way... there is no way of knowing, if you die, that you'll come back. It's all chance, the Gods favouring you, allowing you a second opportunity to go back, and not mess up this time. Illivara fears death because of this. While a woman of faith, she is not so deluded to think that the Gods will keep smiling on her forever, and as such tries to take as much care of herself as possible.

Perhaps an alternate way of thinking of the death planes, is as that of a 'near death experience', a sort of hallucination brought on by blood loss and shock. In this scenario, the 'death quest' could be seen as an internal battle to raise the will power to stand up again, and carry on. Although, this includes the issue of waking up somewhere else completely different, but the character can believe what he wants. It's just an interesting way of looking at 'death' from an IC perspective.

-Lyc.

Aloro · Post by **Aloro** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 7:44 pm

Garand wrote:Arborea has a rocking tavern and all the Mellowsmoke you can inhale ... I can't wait for a group of Chaotic good hard core party people to decide to get themselves all killed so they can go to Dru'El's Great Big Bad Ass Bar-B-Cue Knock Down Drag Out Revel Till the Sun is Drunk to Party in the Sky TM. Whoa. Excellent. *air guitar*

*runs off to make a petition to change the name of the Hand of Dru'El to "Wyld Stallions"*

Cha'reth feels the same way about Arborea. Every time he dies, it's a little bit harder to leave...

He doesn't fear death from a spiritual perspective, because he KNOWS exactly what will happen to him, and where he is going. He's quite clear on what his eternal reward will be, so the only question in his mind is "when"? Dying is frightening only insofar as he has a lot of unfinished business on Avlis, and has a lot of people left to help. How could he leave with the world in the state it's in? So Cha'reth can be quite calm in the face of danger, due to his acceptance of what awaits him - the worst that can happen is he's not able to return and has to stay and enjoy himself for eternity. He really wants to return, but hey, the alternative isn't so bad.

***

Incidentally, Garand, my old character Boris was heavily influenced by Bill & Ted, and used much the same dialect and mannerisms. He permanently retired to Arborea months ago, because his manner of speaking bothered some people. Duuuuude!

***

Most people do not return from death, and EVERYONE stops returning sooner or later. Even for the special 0.001% of people who are allowed by their gods to come back (sometimes many times), there is a finite duration to the lifespan. Thus people should take death seriously.

I'd personally like to see Evil characters more concerned with what's going to happen to them when they die. I mean, you've SEEN Hell, you know what's coming... wouldn't you be motivated to change? Or at least try (and probably fail)? Some psychopaths might enjoy killing things in the Abyss or Hades, but even they should realize that it won't last, and eventually they'll be the victims, not the killers. Just some food for thought.

- Aloro

Tangleroot · Post by **Tangleroot** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 8:01 pm

Some psychopaths might enjoy killing things in the Abyss or Hades, but even they should realize that it won't last, and eventually they'll be the victims, not the killers. Just some food for thought.

Exactly. My character might be able to to kill other souls in Hades, but thing like that is likely to do some mental damage too.

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 8:30 pm

Tiras has killed hundreds of creatures that are never comming back. He is quite aware that the minotaur he just whacked is dead for good. He knows that the vast majority of everyone that dies does not come back. In fact, I have commented IC surprized at the return of some folks I did not see as worthy to have.

There are 9 greater philosophys in Avlis. Each one of those does and should have a different view on this subject just like every other subject. Some agree on some issues, some disagree on the same.

For a reaver, death is cheap and nothing to fear. Just like the fire giant king mentioned earlier. It is an embarassment to be sent there against our will. We have all been there and know it cannot contain us, death holds those other souls, we are too strong.

As mentioned before, some folk like the evil deathplanes. I had a blast in the abyss. If there were more zones, or I could walk to the abyss CoPaP world through the avlis abyss I would probably spend a lot more time in the abyss.

Heck, back a long time ago, when the abyss still gave exp for killing the other souls there, when I died at low lvl I did decide to stay. After a few hours of boreing ass fed-ex shit I was soo excited to fighting other souls to death? or whatever it is you call dead, dead folks. It was great. I stayed for days, met other folks in the abyss occasionaly, etc.

The Sveg · Post by **The Sveg** » Sat Jan 17, 2004 7:08 pm

Interesting topic. I have often raised this in the evil discussion forums as well as the team forums.

I think that the concept that all PCs are 'special' cases is quite good and can explain this immortality problem.

Perhaps some NPCs can be that 'special' from times to times as well.

But then...PCs...what is it in death that should intimidate any character?

They ALWAYS get back. They never lose anything. Not XPs, not items, nothing. So, why fear it? Why not consider it nothing more than the inconvenience of rearranging the inventory?

Well, my char considers it a rather expensive problem really, as Baator is a very expensive trip to be honest...

And some food for thought:

If we do take all that is mentioned in this thread into account is it not cheesing to say that one is scared of dying? Nothing happens to him/her anyway? What is it, is it the pain of the wounds? Heh, you are an adventurer, you get that on a daily basis. What else, being unsure of whether you will be 'granted' another chance? Heh, you ALWAYS are.

What else?

What if one maintained the philosophy that death is nothing to be feared of and lives by it, being totally unafraid of dying? Is he/she wrong? If yes, why?

Oh, by the way, the above is nothing more than food for thought. Keep the discussion running, perhaps we can come to something good.

Morbid Ridicule · Post by **Morbid Ridicule** » Sat Jan 17, 2004 7:56 pm

I once had a character who was obsessed with death. Watching it... and experiencing it.

It was deeply religious for her when she was sacrificed to Aarilax in the Maleki temple.

Unfortunately, I realized that she wouldn't want to leave the ever-changing chaos of limbo... because it was so much better than life. So I had to discontinue her.

_Wake_ · Post by **_Wake_** » Sat Jan 17, 2004 10:39 pm

My PC?s Death Plane is where he finds himself after failing Avlisian life by design or ill willed behavior.
My PC fears it.
Being Dwarven there are no kegs of ale or anvils in the Seven Heavens, so remaining there would be punishment enough.

Maybe there could be more to it though, just a thought.
I believe there should be a xp penalty if your belief is false.
Perhaps in LG seven heavens there should be one other choice for those who have faith (with deity field filled in) such as a ?Faith-observer? one who can absolve you of your lack of perseverance on Avlis and grant you another chance at purity requiring you to continue to give service to your LG god while on Avlis and return you there without xp penalty.

Maybe tying this in with the new Temple faith converter NPC. After all you just died and one of faith would most likely be thankful for this renewed state of being.
Anyways just a thought I?m satisfied with the current state of Death

kombinat · Post by **kombinat** » Sun Jan 18, 2004 3:34 am

WrathOG777 wrote:He is quite aware that the minotaur he just whacked is dead for good.

Expect the minotaur we just whacked to make a reappearance pretty damn soon!