question about the long-term effects of army membership

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Sat Jun 07, 2003 2:13 pm

Once you have served as a soldier for T'Nanshi, would M'Chek ever allow you in?

Consider that Tindertwiggy gave us authorization to banish anyone who helps or harbors a T'Nanshi soldier. In the spirit of the war atmosphere he was trying to foster there, wouldn't anyone who had actually SERVED as a T'Nanshi soldier face at least as harsh a penalty?

For example, we've got Talon Tal'Rathe, who dropped his T'Nanshi army membership because he couldn't take the heat and it was becoming an inconvenience to him. However, his membership in the T'Nanshi army was probably one of the most publicized ever, and he has made inflammatory statements towards M'Chek in and out of game.

Talon Tal'Rathe wrote:Ill offer anyone killing an mchek soldier south of Blandenberg Village 20,000 gold for a kill and 15,000 gold for a capture.

Would M'Chek ever welcome this guy (besides with the blade of their sword)?

choraldances · Post by **choraldances** » Sat Jun 07, 2003 3:14 pm

NO, they would not allow him in, hell no, if he doesn't publicly show his remorse and change his ways.

However, you can never say never. There are always ways around it. But in most cases, he would not be allowed in.

eNTrOpY · Post by **eNTrOpY** » Sat Jun 07, 2003 5:49 pm

Bribes of a rather large proportion would get him in, and probably get an order thrown to you military boys that he was not to be touched as well. (It'd have to be something between 2-2.5 million gp mind you)

There's not much that money can't get you when dealing with government officials in a city where Valok has some influence over the government

Chasman · Post by **Chasman** » Sat Jun 07, 2003 7:08 pm

I agree about the bribing of an official. The other option is to become a skulker until he has the money, or works out some other deal with the army. I'm sure if he contacted us, or a DM, we would be more than happy to make some sort of arrangement that would stop the beatings.

j5hale3 · Post by **j5hale3** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 6:07 am

I'm not sure if I should post here or in rants.....

But WTF?

Live with your character choices! I've read, with much interest, the posts of Talon, his wife, and his friends for several months.

Remember these?

Talon vs. the guard for killing the captain and commoners.

Talon vs. those for the ban on summoned creatures in the city.

Talon vs. the Order of Gorethar in just about anything.

Talon vs. the ban on entering the dwarfen quarters (mostly Kari in this case)

Talon vs. Rackel for her slaying of his skeleton warrior in the middle of an undead encounter.

Talon vs. Roland in the bracer/duplicate incident. He finally annouces his position in the army

Talon is a trouble maker. And that's OK, if that's how the character is. But, now the question is: Is Talon a well played troublemaker character or is the player behind Talon a trouble maker? That's not for me to decide.

But the core point--- Live with your choices!!!!

Looking at this character history, I'd be VERY suprised that we would EVER be alowed safe entry in to M'chek

I understand when there is a mistake made. Like in the case of Allana, she followed the T'Nashi army entrace dialog without realizing the consequence. She never played being in the army. it was a mistake.

But Talon on the other hand did play being in the army and seems only to want out when the Ashen Order commands it. "it is no longer convient" to be in the army...

If I had an Army or Mikona resident character, I would probaly never relate to talon in a friendly way.

ps this post was written very late at night...

Brick · Post by **Brick** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 7:05 am

I've got a war-related question, too. We all know that it's fair game to attack a T'Nanshi soldier in M'Chek and vice versa. But what about going into enemy territory, two or three areas past the warzone, looking for members of the opposing army? Is this legally allowed by the armies? And more importantly, is it frowned upon, in general? Not that I'd ever do such a thing, but being hunted down like this has happened to an acquaintance recently and if nothing is said I'm sure something similar would happen again. Personally I think it's a bit much for soldiers to be wandering around the opposing country looking for PC's to kill.

TrollkillerX · Post by **TrollkillerX** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 8:13 am

Brick wrote:I've got a war-related question, too. We all know that it's fair game to attack a T'Nanshi soldier in M'Chek and vice versa. But what about going into enemy territory, two or three areas past the warzone, looking for members of the opposing army? Is this legally allowed by the armies? And more importantly, is it frowned upon, in general? Not that I'd ever do such a thing, but being hunted down like this has happened to an acquaintance recently and if nothing is said I'm sure something similar would happen again. Personally I think it's a bit much for soldiers to be wandering around the opposing country looking for PC's to kill.

I see nothing wrong with being behind enemy lines and hunting other soldiers as long as you play it out correctly.

My monk has been deep in enemy territory, listening in to their conversations ( Ask Glok about that

) and gathering intel. If you are deep inside T'Nanshi and you can take out a known enemy soldier, then more power to ya , I say !!! The point I would stress is to do it if thats your characters style. Is he an assassin type or not ? If he is , then great, if not....

Pharik · Post by **Pharik** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 8:33 am

j5hale3 wrote

Remember these?

Talon vs. the guard for killing the captain and commoners.

Talon vs. those for the ban on summoned creatures in the city.

Talon vs. the Order of Gorethar in just about anything.

Talon vs. the ban on entering the dwarfen quarters (mostly Kari in this case)

Talon vs. Rackel for her slaying of his skeleton warrior in the middle of an undead encounter

Talon vs. Roland in the bracer/duplicate incident. He finally annouces his position in the army.

Talon is a trouble maker. And that's OK, if that's how the character is. But, now the question is: Is Talon a well played troublemaker character or is the player behind Talon a trouble maker? That's not for me to decide

Thats a very subjective argument you make and one that should be kept entirely ic imo. All those debates/arguments had 2 sides to the coin and just because Talon and Kari held a view that opposed your characters doesnt make them wrong or us bad role-players.

Incidentally I agree with the rest of your post.

ashzz · Post by **ashzz** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 10:23 am

Talon posted a bounty on the heads of mchek soldiers IC. He may be out of the army, but that does not free him from the consequences of this action. People have long memories and those kind of bounties are not easily forgotten.

Pharik · Post by **Pharik** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 10:41 am

This is an ooc board..sure use Talon's actions as examples but try to be a little more objective as befits an ooc discussion else all we will have are ic arguments and counter-arguments.

e.g Talons reply was a tongue-in-cheek comment in response to Rolands bounty on the head of T'Nanshi soldiers. I dont think anyone who knows Talon ic took it seriously.

To me the answer to this debate is simple..rp it..react ic as you feel your characters would. I would NEVER criticise a players decision on his characters actions as he knows the character better than anyone; and I trust the player to know best, even if that means my characters gonna be in for some harsh punishment.

Meanwhile can people stop using ooc information ic please.

j5hale3 · Post by **j5hale3** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 1:43 pm

Yes, Pharik Those are all subjective items. But, they all had Talon in common.

As a player, I don't mind the difference of opinion. It's a good thing and makes the game more interesting.

But like in my first post, Live with your choices.

BTW, Talon's publicly made bounty offer was tongue-in-cheek??? WTF is that, try to remember there are other PC's and NPC's in the world that may have tried to collect...

Pharik · Post by **Pharik** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 3:29 pm

Ok..there you go again! Personally I think you should take it to the rants board if youre going to continue in that tone.

Youve already stated you dont have a character who is a Mikonan citizen OR a member of the Army so why the hell do you care about Talons bounty and not Rolands? Ok if your character doesnt like Talon then keep that in game or for the ic boards; I dont think it has a place here in the manner youre putting it across.

And furthermore your original arguments were irrelevant.

Talon vs. the guard for killing the captain and commoners.

Talon did not deliberately kill anyone. When learning to cast in the heat of battle many young mages make mistakes, unfortunate and the consequences are harsh - my char was evil for a while. Ask any magic user and you will learn we have all been there.

This is entirely irrelevant to the question about the long-term effects of army membership.

Talon vs. those for the ban on summoned creatures in the city.

So those for the ban were right and those against were wrong?? Lets not forget there were differences of opinion between DM's here. Everyone was entitled to an opinion ic an ooc and the result was a fair compromise. FYI not all familiars/summons are included in the ban.

And again this is entirely irrelevant to the question about the long-term effects of army membership.

Talon vs. the Order of Gorethar in just about anything.

I know it seems so sometimes but the OoG are NOT the M'Chek army. The OoG represents law and order in Mikona. Talons character hasnt much time for either and he isnt alone in his way of thinking.

Lets get one thing straight here it isnt unlawful to disagree with a set of rules and air those views. You yourself say that a conflict of opinions is a good thing and makes for interesting rp and yet you bring Talon (character) into an ooc debate with the inference his opinion is wrong!

And yet again this is totally irrelevant to the question about the long-term effects of army membership.

Talon vs. the ban on entering the dwarfen quarters (mostly Kari in this case)

Actually this so called ban is being examined ic as we speak and I actually think it was all Kari in this case..but even so what has this to do with the question about the long-term effects of army membership?

Talon vs. Rackel for her slaying of his skeleton warrior in the middle of an undead encounter.

*sighs* for a start the fight was with bandits NOT undead. If you had been there you would know this. Eye-witness statements clearly put Rackel in the wrong and while I can understand people choosing to ignore that ic we are having an ooc discussion here!! Whats wrong with you?

Stick to the point, this matter has zilch to do with the question about the long-term effects of army membership.

Talon vs. Roland in the bracer/duplicate incident. He finally annouces his position in the army

Finally, you manage to touch on something that was to do with being a soldier. Too bad you had to correlate it with an ooc issue - the duplication bug.

Leaving the bug issue out what have you got? Roland kills Talon for attacking soldiers and removes his weapons from his corpse. Talon later has the opportunity to loot Rolands corpse and takes his bracers to use as a bartering lever in getting his weapons back.

From what I have read and heard these two behaved pretty much the way a lot of PC soldiers behave. IC depending on what side you take in the war one is a hero the other a villain. Thats fine, but this overspill into ooc is disturbing to me and quite unnecessary.

Finally, do I think Talon should take for granted walking the streets of Mikona safely after serving as a warrior in the T'Nanshi Army? No ofcourse not, but then neither should the other half a dozen publically known TNanshi warriors that do so on a regular basis.

Makes you think doesnt it? All those times he gets smacked down for being a soldier when others arent touched. Hmm maybe those incidences you mention have more relevance to his being killed than we are led to believe and the question about the long-term effects of army membership is merely a smokescreen.

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 3:59 pm

Finally, do I think Talon should take for granted walking the streets of Mikona safely after serving as a warrior in the T'Nanshi Army? No ofcourse not, but then neither should the other half a dozen publically known TNanshi warriors that do so on a regular basis.

Makes you think doesnt it? All those times he gets smacked down for being a soldier when others arent touched. Hmm maybe those incidences you mention have more relevance to his being killed than we are led to believe and the question about the long-term effects of army membership is merely a smokescreen.

The smiting is being laid down indiscriminately among T'Nanshi soldiers entering M'Chek. We are not singling Talon out for attention, he is just receiving more than his fair share because most people get the hint after the first encounter.

Post by **Alexandru Stanicu** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 4:07 pm

Need I say more?

Alexandru Stanicu
Avlis Team, Senior DM

subspace1011 · Post by **subspace1011** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 4:14 pm

ashzz wrote:Talon posted a bounty on the heads of mchek soldiers IC. He may be out of the army, but that does not free him from the consequences of this action. People have long memories and those kind of bounties are not easily forgotten.

My turn! People in general are stupid, fragile, and forgetful. All it takes is a big public display to make them forget something in the past. Take the media for example.

What is the media discussing now in the US? The Martha Stewart Trial. Why? Because there's been no earth-shattering event taking place lately.
I guarantee if the US decided to bomb Iraq again, it would be front page news and Martha would take the Back-burner. That's the way the world is, humans thrive on disaster. Now, seeing the latest developments in Mikona (half-orcs, wizards, and Hugar) What do YOU think the people are going to pay more attention to? Their lives? Or some remorseful twit who used be part of an army? The only person I would think who would have a major vendetta against Talon would be the wife/husband or children of the person he murdered.

The thing about a forum is, everyone can read about Every situation that happens in Avlis, at any time, of any day. It's highly impractical for the people of Mikona to remember EVERYTHING that's happened since Avlis started, yet you can go through the forums and see everything, if you wish.

As pertaining to the ooc information IC, it comes back to human nature. If you know something that could wreak havoc on a person's character, you're going to use it. Therefore, using OOC info to change a player's perspective of the situation is wrong. I've seen it before on the boards, but I'll say it again.

DON'T SAY THINGS OOC UNLESS YOU WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW THEM IC

Wow, that's kind of a rant, but it's the truth. Have I made my point?

Pharik · Post by **Pharik** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 4:16 pm

I agree with you there Funk as a character Talon is pretty relentless.

And Alexandru despite my asking for the discussion to be kept ooc if I implied any griefing was going on I absolutely meant it was going on ic not ooc. Sorry if I never made that clear.

ashzz · Post by **ashzz** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 4:33 pm

Talon posted in an IC area a reward for mcheken soldiers, and a very high reward. if it was meant ooc, then he shouldnt have posted in the IC area. If not, and as a joke, well, I cant see how the mchek military would care. If I was a ranking officer in the mchek military I would put him on every wanted list out there. This is a 50 year war, and it is not a joking matter, especially for the people of mchek whos soldiers are fighting to save their race from starvation.

Misty is neutral and I myself dont give a hoot. But, it is Talons own fault. and while as stated, the citizens may have a short memory, soldiers do not. They view Talon as extremely dangerous, and they would need major things to happen to regain their trust of him.

Pharik · Post by **Pharik** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 4:36 pm

Talon posted in an IC area a reward for mcheken soldiers, and a very high reward. if it was meant ooc, then he shouldnt have posted in the IC area.

??? I said it was tongue-in-cheek not ooc..BIG difference.

subspace1011 · Post by **subspace1011** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 4:41 pm

ashzz wrote:Talon posted in an IC area a reward for mcheken soldiers, and a very high reward. if it was meant ooc, then he shouldnt have posted in the IC area. If not, and as a joke, well, I cant see how the mchek military would care. If I was a ranking officer in the mchek military I would put him on every wanted list out there. This is a 50 year war, and it is not a joking matter, especially for the people of mchek whos soldiers are fighting to save their race from starvation.

Misty is neutral and I myself dont give a hoot. But, it is Talons own fault. and while as stated, the citizens may have a short memory, soldiers do not. They view Talon as extremely dangerous, and they would need major things to happen to regain their trust of him.

Are you saying that soldiers have a higher wisdom/lore rating than ordinary citizens? They lose the armor, all they are is citizens.

j5hale3 · Post by **j5hale3** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 5:23 pm

Wow, I'll say it again, I need to learn to write better....

Pharik, I'm not trying to start a war of letters.

My arguments, as you call them, are just points of "friction" between Talon and several other groups/characters. This is done only in terms of reasons why He should never be alowed free access to Mikona again...

yes, things happen that are mistakes. I live with that for my characters and for any others.

And for what these have to do with the actual subject of long-term effects of army membership, I'm more replying in term of Long-term effects of "character decisions" in general.

I care about the quality of the world in terms of its feeling real. Like a well written story, Actions should have consequenses.

I'm sorry if I infered his opinions were wrong. I'm just pointing out the facts. He seems to have a lack of regard to his fellow man. Any one can re-read his postings and make their own decisions.

You mention of Rackel incident seems off... I remember that Rackel said that there were some undeads in the area.... But you are right, I was not there... I wouldn't expect her to lie but maybe she did... I don't know..

These are just my opinions. Talon is an enemy of the state of Mikona and extreme measures should be taken by the military and the guards.

I think a serious DM quest to clear his name would be needed to rectify the situation. Very similiar to the Lanessa plot line.

Once again, my main point is to live with your characters decisions.

ashzz · Post by **ashzz** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 5:29 pm

Pharik wrote:
Talon posted in an IC area a reward for mcheken soldiers, and a very high reward. if it was meant ooc, then he shouldnt have posted in the IC area.

??? I said it was tongue-in-cheek not ooc..BIG difference.

Pharik, you should read complete posts. Right the next sentence I stated that if it was IC, it was still stupid..stupid IC by Talon. You don't go make a joke IC offering a 20000 gold reward per soldier head and then expect to saunter around mchek without soldiers attacking you on site.

As for the remark regarding soldiers widowm/forgetfullness vs citizens..whatever. Talon is probably on every soldiers barracks chest with a big post up description that says 'kill him, enemy of the state'

This is a persistant world were your actions influence the big picture. Misty killed a halfling with lightning once, a complete IC event because the halfling was rude to her. She had to listen to a lecture from Glocknal, lie about the lightning and really squirm a bit. But im not complaining, infact I expected it.

Id be dissappointed if the mchek military wasnt hunting Talon and slaughtering him. Thats what they should do. Put yourselves in the shoes of Roland Berre. Would yu act any different towards Talon after what he has done? No. And if yu did, you wouldnt be roleplaying properly.

HarveyH · Post by **HarveyH** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 5:35 pm

I think the whole issue is quite clear: Talon offered a large amount of money to people killing M'Check soldiers. He has some serious bribing to do before he is officially allowed into M'Chek again, and even after spending 2 million gp I can still imagine some M'Chek soldiers killing him for 'personal reasons'. To M'Chek soldiers, apologies, remorse and bribing their superiors won't change a simple fact: Talon is the ENEMY. He killed their comrades. He must DIE.
Face the consequences indeed.

eNTrOpY · Post by **eNTrOpY** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 5:51 pm

As I stated, in the 3rd post. THAT is the ruling.

Harvey and others:

the NPC soldiers will no doubt take shots. PC soldiers can take shots after bribes but after bribes, orders will be given down the chain of command not to touch a character that has bribed his way out. If such a character is attacked by a soldier, the soldier will receive a severe reprimand. (Automatically happens for any NPC, and will happen to a PC if an attack is reported to me via PM after a bribe is given)

Brick · Post by **Brick** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 6:15 pm

double post

Brick · Post by **Brick** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 6:20 pm

Brick wrote:I've got a war-related question, too. We all know that it's fair game to attack a T'Nanshi soldier in M'Chek and vice versa. But what about going into enemy territory, two or three areas past the warzone, looking for members of the opposing army? Is this legally allowed by the armies? And more importantly, is it frowned upon, in general? Not that I'd ever do such a thing, but being hunted down like this has happened to an acquaintance recently and if nothing is said I'm sure something similar would happen again. Personally I think it's a bit much for soldiers to be wandering around the opposing country looking for PC's to kill.

I'd still kind of like this answered by a DM... I've always thought that the war should be kept in the warzone except when:

1) You find the enemy in your country

2) You're making a raid on the Le'Or garrison, or on Equaloria keep, etc...

But are assassinations approved by the goverments? And are they viewed as taking the CvC aspect of the war a bit too far? I'd like to not have to worry about being randomly killed every second I'm online. It seems like common courtesy to players, not to characters, to hunt PC's that aren't in the warzone. Rien is in M'Chek for covert operations quite often, so all of this is of particular interest to me... In fact it's come to be my preferred method of warfare because lately I think that people have been using the war as an excuse for PVP.