The epic ststem?

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I think this idea

is crap, I love the epic system
25
20%
Has some merit and I agree with it to some regard
30
25%
is too wimpy, I hate the epic system and think we should stop at level 20
6
5%
is off target, there are things wrong but this doesnt address them
19
16%
I have no opinion and am happy with whatever the team decide
16
13%
I love snow
26
21%
 
Total votes: 122
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Heronimous Fox
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The epic ststem?

Post by Heronimous Fox » Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:39 pm

Epicness

This topic has been troubling me for ages....since levels 20-40 were introduced.

Before Epic came in there were many examples of good role play and community involvement from people stagnant at level 20 before epicness came in, advancement wasn't a consideration.

Since it came in the focus shifted somewhat IMHO and I think has been detrimental to our little community.

I think it has had several major negative impacts.

1. Workload on the team - accomodating new improved scarier than hell NPCS to meet this 'threat'.
2. Workload for the team - accomodating new improved more scarily ambient areas for epics.
3. People seem to view level 20 as the level where they can take part in Avlis. This IS a gross generalisation but I have seen evidence of this IMHO.
4. The race to level 40. Some players view this as their goal and will do everything they can to reach there. Feck the RP.
5. The team having to spend time monitoring pissant power/meta this and that'ers

The question is:

Is a limit to level advancement after level 20 a good thing?

So what about advancement thereafter? There are good aspects to epicness that shouldnt be ignored.

What about a scenario where you carry on accruing xps, which the team can see and at their discretion unlock your character from time to time at their collective agreement and allow you to advance.

You're therefore rewarded for time (logged in the server), roleplay (RP of the month and DM notes, general enthusiastic good eggedness) and general observed activity in game.

Epic feats would be allowed as rewards by the team for exceptional activity as well as the level advancement.

The team could award random skill points for good role play.

A benefit would be people who the team know powercraft/camp/abuse would piss off quickly and such

Personally I have hated the race to 40! I think it has spoilt some aspects of persistent worlds and is a dodgy marketing gimic to extend shelf life of a game when a bit of thought and creativity would be better.

Detriment would be more decisions from the team for whiners to ...err....whine over.

Crap idea or ......dunno?
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Post by Fifty » Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:43 pm

I was always a big supporter of the idea that any level above 25 or so should require DM intervention to unlock.
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Post by Themicles » Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:43 pm

I don't mind the idea myself, but inevitably, someone will cry favourtism, even if it doesn't exist. In fact, people already do.
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Post by Krator » Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:52 pm

Fifty wrote:I was always a big supporter of the idea that any level above 25 or so should require DM intervention to unlock.
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Post by Tesh » Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:55 pm

Whist I agree with the sentiment and the concept I don't think that this system addresses the underlying problem in a fair manner.
The major shortfall of this system is that it relies on you being seen by a DM to be roleplaying. This can be a real issue for some players who are in strange and wonderous locations or play at odd times.

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Post by slave_of_emotions » Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:27 pm

if it would be a completly new server , sure , nice thing. Out there are several servers doing that.

For COPAP or even just avlis ? Bad idea in my opinion.
Even now guilds with 1% have huge advantages, or just those that have them as friends.
Now here are even more epics now, and locking it now would give a advantage to us.. uhm... 10% ((? )) and those that have them in guilds over those waiting months before they can even take level 21.
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Post by TripleAught » Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:31 pm

3. People seem to view level 20 as the level where they can take part in Avlis. This IS a gross generalisation but I have seen evidence of this IMHO.
I really would like to see this rumor stamped out.
But, sadly, IMHO, I think you are right. Some players feel the need to move quickly through the lower levels before they think they can get involved.

*Note that I'm not discussing any of the reasons why this persists, or laying blame on any group of players.
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Post by spokeydonkey » Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:33 pm

If I were making a PW, I would require a DM to unlock it to hit level 21+. I required that my players' PCs attract the attention of the gods in PnP to hit epic, and would do the same in a PW.

But this isn't my PW. This has come up before, and I doubt Avlis is going to implement it, since it isn't their way of doing things.

But aside from my criticism, I do appreciate the nerfing of epic XP. Epic characters who used to have nothing to do but farm XP suddenly have to develop some breadth to their character concepts. I think we'll see a lot less people shooting for 40 without interacting with anyone else. It's a roundabout way of doing it, and it might not have been the intent, but it makes an XP-whoring epic very difficult to play, and makes the most rewarding type of epic the one who's heavily involved in the game world and RP.
Last edited by spokeydonkey on Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by spokeydonkey » Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:37 pm

TripleAught wrote:
3. People seem to view level 20 as the level where they can take part in Avlis. This IS a gross generalisation but I have seen evidence of this IMHO.
I really would like to see this rumor stamped out.
But, sadly, IMHO, I think you are right. Some players feel the need to move quickly through the lower levels before they think they can get involved.

*Note that I'm not discussing any of the reasons why this persists, or laying blame on any group of players.
]

You have to hit 20 to take part in some parts of Avlis. Levels are a part of the game. You handle IC conflict differently if you can single-handedly kill your entire opposing guild/NPC group than if you can't kill a single one of them.

But there are equally many things you only experience as a lowbie (much more random party-grouping, the experience of making a name for yourself and joining guilds, getting an highbie as a mentor, etc.), that you'd miss by shooting to 20.

What makes an RP server different from a generic MMORPG is that you can take time and enjoy the journey to the top, rather than focusing on the grinding to get there. There's something enjoyable to do at every level, and if you powergame to 20, you'll find yourself regretting that you missed out on a lot.
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Post by Nighthawk4 » Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:38 pm

IMHO, the problem with Epicness is that - by definition - an Epic person should be rare. They should be really well known - a major character in their society - a leader and a teacher. Most people would hold them in awe and listen to their every word. There should be no more than one or two in any society or at least in any group of adventurers.

Instead, they are now ten-a-penny, with any decent-sized group of defenders in a city or the like having at least 5 or 6 of them. Everybody knows at least a dozen of them.

Clearly this makes no sense IC. :cry:

What is the solution, if any? I really haven't a clue. To be honest, I doubt that there is one. Perhaps it should be much, much harder to advance above Level 20, perhaps the levels above 20 should be treated like a PrC - requiring a quest and DM-unlock before they can be taken.

Perhaps there is no solution. Perhaps it isn't even really a problem. :?
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Re: The epic ststem?

Post by Mistcaller » Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:41 pm

Heronimous Fox wrote:Epicness

This topic has been troubling me for ages....since levels 20-40 were introduced.
I believe there are a few more things to take into account when discussing this topic. When levels over 20 were introduced in NWN, certain things happened to Avlis at the same, approximately, time. A big wave of players joined the world, along with the expansion of Avlis in more servers... which in turn can accomodate even more players...
Therefore, its quite different to talk about epicness in general, than talk about epicness and how it affects Avlis in particular.

Cause it is my strong feeling that its a combination of factors that produces these troubling thoughts and not 'epicness' alone... as such, I dont think you could alleviate the problem, if there is indeed any, if you could not address all of those factors.
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Post by JollyOrc » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:09 pm

spokeydonkey wrote:You have to hit 20 to take part in some parts of Avlis. Levels are a part of the game. You handle IC conflict differently if you can single-handedly kill your entire opposing guild/NPC group than if you can't kill a single one of them.
*pulling the elitism card*

no, you specificly do not have to hit any level at all to take part in Avlis. There's proof.

Yes, you do handle conflict differently. Instead of risking your own hide, you simply point at the offending PC(s) and say "kill". :twisted:
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Post by Micah » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:10 pm

I am quite content with my view that epicness transcends level altogether. ICly and OOCly both I see characters of a wide variety of levels who are in my eyes very epic and similarly others that are very not epic. It has nothing to do with level, although in some cases it makes perfect sense to me that a particular character who is portrayed very epic has a large number of levels. It represents mastery over certain aspects of their profession and whatnot. There are many though (well not a TON, but enough that I'll say so) that are very epic characters in my eyes and would remain so even if they were level 1. For them, and their high level counterpart, it is the character portrayal and not the levels that make them epic. Sometimes having lots of levels reinforces a concept. Sometimes they don't need lots of levels. Take for example two of my favorite good guys: Rika and Fergus. Now ICly I often find myself wanting to set them on fire... but whether they were level 5, 10, 15 or 35 they would have the same profound impact on the world around them. I would contend that both of them were very epic long before they approached the level 20 boundary. (In Fergus' case I'm not even sure he is epic yet...)

So I don't know. I think the system is fine. The name is a bit retarded, since it sort of calls you to race towards it sure. But epicness is about reputation far more than numbers on a character sheet. And whether they like it or not, the people who race to level 3X are not going to get an epic reputation the world over. So I say leave the system and let people play how they want. The RP will develop around what is done IC that benefits the community, and the true epics will grow from there. That's the basis on which I will start ICly and OOCly judging. The rest of them, level 1-40, can have all the stats in the world. Whether or not I like it I think is kind of moot, even to me... since I come to play with the players whose characters I love to hate (and love to love). In that regards I'm one of those RP elitist types, but that's what works for me.
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Post by Micah » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:11 pm

Yeah, that bastard Janur is another example.
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Post by Marleh » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:12 pm

I think we'll see a lot less people shooting for 40 without interacting with anyone else. It's a roundabout way of doing it, and it might not have been the intent, but it makes an XP-whoring epic very difficult to play, and makes the most rewarding type of epic the one who's heavily involved in the game world and RP.
Unfortunately this is not what I'm seeing. Instead, I'm having to deal with epic characters try to force their way into crafting guilds for no other discernable reason than the xp.
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Post by Ghostie » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:18 pm

*votes for the snow option*
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Post by Tigg » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:19 pm

I find it a bit troubling that most (though not all) of the people I hear complaining about this, are people who have solidly epic level characters themselves. The subtext being, "I deserved it, but player X didn't". Personally I don't see a big problem, and would likely view it as a negative point to the server if some sort of restriction along these lines was implemented. However in the end it's a question for the team to decide, and the odd bit of sniping from epics at other epics isn't exactly admirable IMO. As for the question of waiting until 20 to roleplay? I'm really not sure what server anyone who's claiming this, is playing on.
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Re: The epic ststem?

Post by Vergilius » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:24 pm

Mistcaller wrote:
Cause it is my strong feeling that its a combination of factors that produces these troubling thoughts and not 'epicness' alone... as such, I dont think you could alleviate the problem, if there is indeed any, if you could not address all of those factors.
I agree with this "combination of factors". A satisfactory solution would require a clear and comprehensive definition of the problem, investigation into the combination of causes that produced the problem, and then what steps could be taken to remedy that problem.

Often times, "opinions" and "impressions" on a matter are really not indicative of our true concerns, but symptoms of something much deeper. I think this is also true with regards to the "problem of epicness". Part of the problem is the system itself, which is designed for a PNP setting, yet has been rigidly applied to a computer gaming environment. Part of the problem is simply that players game for a variety of reasons, and sometimes these reasons are incongruous, or precipitiously balanced.
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Post by slave_of_emotions » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:36 pm

Nighthawk4 wrote:IMHO, the problem with Epicness is that - by definition - an Epic person should be rare. They should be really well known - a major character in their society - a leader and a teacher. Most people would hold them in awe and listen to their every word. There should be no more than one or two in any society or at least in any group of adventurers.

Instead, they are now ten-a-penny, with any decent-sized group of defenders in a city or the like having at least 5 or 6 of them. Everybody knows at least a dozen of them.

Clearly this makes no sense IC. :cry:

What is the solution, if any? I really haven't a clue. To be honest, I doubt that there is one. Perhaps it should be much, much harder to advance above Level 20, perhaps the levels above 20 should be treated like a PrC - requiring a quest and DM-unlock before they can be taken.

Perhaps there is no solution. Perhaps it isn't even really a problem. :?
Or perhaps Bioware & Obsidian did right thing to remove epic from the name in Knights of the old Republic. Perhaps they even did it after seeing that there is no sense to convert that from D&D as it has no real meaning in computer games.
The only realy Epic Char i know would be susallia, and she is below 20. People that are worth it will make them a epic reputation no matter what level they are.
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Post by girlysprite » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:45 pm

DM's dont have time for it is my guess. I mean, how much does a person have to do to become epic. And what about those that are epic already? That would be unfair to new characters.
Sorry, but you are too late to adress the problem to solve it.
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Post by spokeydonkey » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:49 pm

girlysprite wrote:DM's dont have time for it is my guess. I mean, how much does a person have to do to become epic. And what about those that are epic already? That would be unfair to new characters.
Sorry, but you are too late to adress the problem to solve it.
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Post by apandapion » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:53 pm

I don't like the D&D epic system at all. I don't object to the idea of people continuing to gain power after level 20 - in fact, it irritates me that characters can reach a point where they cease to learn. If your level-based system has a cap or needs a cap, you fucked up your design.

What I do hate is the way it's implemented in D&D. It's all a colossal monstrous hack. Your number of attacks per round should not become fixed at level 20. A fighter 20/wizard 20 should not be completely different from a wizard 20/fighter 20. The epic handbook is a piece of rubbish, and if it was an integral-to-the-system piece of rubbish, I wouldn't play tabletop D&D. Luckily, you can ignore it.

Avlis, with it's "everybody in the same basket" ideology, could do without the epic *feats*. Going above 20 could still be fun without autoquicken, devastating critical, or dragon form. But changing anything now is just going to make a lot of people noisily unhappy. Where's the picture of the lego lynch mob?
Fifty wrote:I was always a big supporter of the idea that any level above 25 or so should require DM intervention to unlock.
I don't like the social ramifications of this. People are awfully cliqueish even when it doesn't add up to anything. When it does, people can get downright petty. This will turn into a popularity contest regardless of the intent and in spite of the best efforts of the implementors.
TripleAught wrote:
3. People seem to view level 20 as the level where they can take part in Avlis. This IS a gross generalisation but I have seen evidence of this IMHO.
I really would like to see this rumor stamped out.
But, sadly, IMHO, I think you are right. Some players feel the need to move quickly through the lower levels before they think they can get involved.

*Note that I'm not discussing any of the reasons why this persists, or laying blame on any group of players.
I always thought it was the opposite! The more powerful you are, the more you distort the power level of any event you show up at. I think "how much will I change the dynamic of this group?" should be at the forefront of every post-level-20's mind. I've seen a couple epic characters walk away from events... that's got to be something like the exact opposite of fun.

As for the statement "you have to be over level 20 to do some things", maybe the worst things that epics have done is destroy everyone's sense of tactics. For a difficult encounter, you can either a) think or b) go get Jwol, Ed, Rhiss or *insert your favorite 'living incarnation of death' epic here*. People go with B a lot, and a lot of places that I am almost certain were designed before the epic rules came in are considered "you need an epic to go here".
Micah Ormane wrote:I am quite content with my view that epicness transcends level altogether.
I guess it should be clear to me by now that any conversation about epic levels will result in this little word game being played. We all know that you can be cool without being over level 20. Can we talk about the mechanics in one thread now, please?
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Post by VETT SCALES L7 » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:55 pm

Being Epic and being Epic Level are two different things.

Any DM can tell you how one is much more powerful than the other.
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Post by Grunt » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:56 pm

Screw that.

So people can vault beyond level 20 in under 2 years. Big whoop. Maybe they played 20-30 hours a week, maybe they went adventuring more often than others, maybe they did some crafting...

To people who have 4 characters, the highest of which is level 7, and you've been here 3 years: Good job, I hope you're having fun.

To people who have 1 character, who is level 17, and you've been here 3 months: Good job, I hope you're having fun.

Total XP from level 1 to level 10: 45000
Total XP from level 10 to level 20: 145000
Total XP from level 20 to level 25: 135000

(meaning XP to earn not what your XP total will be)

So it's quite possible that while you're plodding along between level 20 to get to 25, someone who was level 10 when you hit epic could quite easily become epic by the time you reach 25...by putting in close to the same amount of effort. Probably easier too with the new XP system in place.

Bottom line... Is it ruining YOUR gaming experience?

YES: staff@avlis.org
NO: Game on.

Also don't fall into the trap of "some people" requiring penalizing "all people". Just let 'em play until the plug gets pulled.

Besides, the trade fair just got over! ...shouldn't this poll be about crafters driving down the value of items, and people having too much gold and buying gear and not deserving to have it? Check the calendar... Epic level talk is next week, last week was XP, this week is gold/outrageous item costs... and after the Epic level discussion is the "crafting/artificing" conference followed by the "Nerfed/Overpowered" caucus. :P

-Grunt

p.s. As much as Micah may claim things such as "F'ng Crafters" and "F'ng Psions"... we all know the Ebony Tower has a basement where young psions are put to work in sweatshop like conditions crafting Ebony Order robes using <spoiler removed> and <spoiler removed> and <spoiler removed>.

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Post by PsiOmega » Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:03 pm

spokeydonkey wrote:
girlysprite wrote:DM's dont have time for it is my guess. I mean, how much does a person have to do to become epic. And what about those that are epic already? That would be unfair to new characters.
Sorry, but you are too late to adress the problem to solve it.
Vault wipe!

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