The World of Avlis

Are Shadows clasified as undead?

Ive gone around and around with folk in game, and two well respected players in the guild "keepers of the cycle" (hunters of undead) have argued with me that their shadow summons are not undead and I shouldnt run right over and bash the shit out of em. (which I do, without hesitation)
My in character arguments, are that the undead in the LRC are shadows, and without a doubt, undead.
Out of character arguments would be, that the Death domain for clerics gives a shadow summons, obviously linking death to shadow. Also, the most compelling argument would be that firing off a Turn Undead as a cleric destroys shadows.

But to be honest, I can see the argument my fellow players have. The plane of shadow is in many ways like an elemental plane or something, and I agree, that it does not necessarily have to deal with death as far as Im concerned.

Just looking for clarification. Undead or not?
-Ben

Shadows, Shadow Fiends and Summoned Shadows are undead.

Their argument is perfectly valid, in that the Demi-Plane of Shadow is an elemental plane, but element it happens to be mixing with is Negative Energy. That is the stuff of undeath.

Official view of the Evil Necromancers Guild (who know far more than the Keepers ): they are undead.

Incidentally, if you look at the character sheet of your shadow summon, it's creature type is described as "undead".

Shadows in NWN are usually undead.

The Plane of Shadow is one of the transitive planes (like the Astral and the Ethereal planes). The creatures are shadow versions of common beings and they are not necessarily undead: an example of non undead shadow we can see in NWN is the shadow mastiff, for instance. Also, the Plane of Shadow has nothing to do with negative energy, with a few parts called the Darklands being the only exception.

So, it begs the question - Where do they summon their shadows from?

Well, shadow dancer Shadow are supposed to be from the Plane of Shadows, but the way the NWN engine works, all shadows are undead.

Doesn't matter how much we argue where they are from. A cleric will abuse the engine, turn undead and say " there it was undead"

So what if they're undead? Mine is CG, she helps old people with their groceries.

According to the SD prestige class in the DMG, the summoned shadow is undead. According to the Monster Manual, shadows are undead. According to NWN, shadows are undead.

So nyeah.

SD Summoned Shadows are technically undead, but unlike the more common shadows they're odd in that they reflect the alignment of the summoner rather than automatically being CE.

That's the only notable difference there.

white-black wrote:Official view of the Evil Necromancers Guild (who know far more than the Keepers ): they are undead.

There is a necromancer guild?

Nob wrote:SD Summoned Shadows are technically undead, but unlike the more common shadows they're odd in that they reflect the alignment of the summoner rather than automatically being CE.

That's the only notable difference there.

And they can't be turned... it's a pretty well known fact, but from what Beary said some clerics still do it. Are SD's shadows supposed to be turn-able on Avlis (because it's too hard to script) or should clerics not do it (when possible of course) ?

A test reavealed Trina could turn my character, Nikki's SD summon shadow, but only to the point it was feared.

As for all shadows being undead thats not true. Epic shadow lord has fighter levels not undead and i believe still reflects the characters alignment *drools* few more levels and nikki will have one!

shadows = undead

undead != evil, CE, NE, LE necessarily. Good undead do exist, and have in PnP for a very long time. They are, however, the exception, not the rule.

Undead can even have fighter levels, mage levels (lich, anyone?), rogue levels. Levels doesn't make life. They are now, and have always been, undead.

Rain&Clouds wrote:And they can't be turned... it's a pretty well known fact, but from what Beary said some clerics still do it. Are SD's shadows supposed to be turn-able on Avlis (because it's too hard to script) or should clerics not do it (when possible of course) ?

I'm not sure if the team has tweaked the summon shadow ability or the summoned shadows themselves, but you could probably make them effectively immune to turning by giving them an insane turn resistance.

SD shadows usually have a lot of HD. A Cleric needs to be lvl = 2* undead's HD in order to destroy it instantly witha turn undead (according to the PHB).

*smites shadows without hesitation or compassion*

*doesnt even summon the Sd shadow as it sucks nuts*

this just reminds me of the useless feat I took for my first psion level... Summon shadow, now I've been in two groups that dispise undead and I havent been able to use it since I was level 3

Starslayer_D wrote:SD shadows usually have a lot of HD. A Cleric needs to be lvl = 2* undead's HD in order to destroy it instantly witha turn undead (according to the PHB).

Only the epic shadowlord gets alot of HD, the Summoned Shadows, Summoned Shadow Fiends and Summoned Shadow Lords don't have many HDs...

In NWN Shadows are undead, even Epic SL is undead (race) but has Fighter as a class.

On turning thing... Shadow has +10 Turn resist (or simmilar) on its hide (or other creature item) so I don't think it would be difficult to edit it to a higher number to make it completly unturnable.




As for you stormhammer.... *spams hips on him*

according to every rule I know of, yes, they are undead. As to what they are considered IC, that is entirely a matter of IC oppinion and will vary. It is worth noting though, that none of the spells to summon them are necromancy, they are all illusions, the most death oriented way to get one is with the clerics death domain powers, and even that is called a negative plane avatar, so think what you will of that.

http://www.avlis.org/viewtopic.php?t=37 ... ht=shadows

http://www.avlis.org/viewtopic.php?t=52 ... ht=shadows

Kharkiv wrote: this just reminds me of the useless feat I took for my first psion level... Summon shadow, now I've been in two groups that dispise undead and I havent been able to use it since I was level 3

Use it with other people then. Roll with some newbies/lowbies and bring it out around them. They can either accept the shadow or not, and aside from religious zealots and such they really should just trust you to keep it under control. Heck, bringing it out around the holy rollers could be amusing.

loki70 wrote:shadows = undead

undead != evil, CE, NE, LE necessarily. Good undead do exist, and have in PnP for a very long time. They are, however, the exception, not the rule.

Thank you for pointing this out. Why not some neutral or good aligned undead controlled by players? I read on another thread about this subject that the summoned SD shadow is the same alignment as its master. Wouldnt psion shadow be the same way? I can think of other good aligned undead. Who hasn't heard a ghost story where the ghost is benevolent. I've heard more than one where the ghost even saves lives somehow.

Although as Loki points out, undead does not nessessarily equal evil, summoned undead are unnatural in my mind, which opens up a whole different debate.

BTW, I think the psion shadows are not undeads. They are the psion shadow animated. You are using your powers to animate your own shadow, not to summon something. But I'll have to check the books about that, because I'm not sure.