The World of Avlis

OK, I don't really do system, so could someone please explain the following:

1) what's the difference between a light and a heavy crossbow. Do they have different fire rates?

2) Which is better: A mahogany bow +1, +2 mighty, Massive criticals 2 or a plain +2 bow.

3) What if any are the advantages of a crossbow over a longbow?

Thanks.

I have just bought a short bow (oak one) but it really depends on
what sort of character you see yourself as.

Light and Crossbows differ (I think) in Damage, Range and rate of fire.

A Mahogany bow gives you a +1 to hit and damage, a maximum of +2 due to any strength modification and on a critcal hit does 2 more points of damage. A plain +2 Bow is better at hitting, and if you have no strength bonus's to add to your arrow damage is probably your best bet, as the Massive Criticals of 2 is nice but not essential

Crossbows do more damage, but bows have a quicker fire rate, however a rapid reload feat can offset this and allows you to fire Cross bows as fast as a Bow. But then again a Bow with the Rapid Fire feat allows the best rate of fire. There maybe also a consideration in range? I know in PnP versions you get penalties for medium and long distance firing...

I'm pretty sure the most a crossbow can fire, even with the rapid reload feat, is two bolts per round. A bow can get up to 5 per round. Although crossbows do deal more damage per shot fired.

Alexyzar wrote:IA Mahogany bow gives you a +1 to hit and damage, a maximum of +2 due to any strength modification and on a critcal hit does 2 more points of damage. A plain +2 Bow is better at hitting, and if you have no strength bonus's to add to your arrow damage is probably your best bet, as the Massive Criticals of 2 is nice but not essential

I have strength 12 and thus a +1 bonus, I think. Does that mean my +1 mahogany bow with 2 mighty is as accurate as a +2 would be?

In PnP, rate of fire is different with light and heavy crossbows. In NWN rate is the same 1 per round, or 2 if you have rapid reload feat, and that is even if you have say 4 attacks per round normally. The big difference is damage. Light is d8, Heavy is d10.

If you are a character with only a few attacks per round, e.g. low level or a mage then a crossbow is ideal. Note that you only need to get Rapid Reload to get the extra attack. If you are a bow user you need Point Blank SHot too IIRC (as it is a pre-requisite of Rapid Shot).

If you intend on getting more than 2 attacks per round with your character then a bow is perhaps better (or sling even).

Of course there are character / cosmetic reasons to chose one over the other, e.g. crossbows may look cooler, they are "better" for shooting in tunnels etc. because their trajectory does not arch so much (complete rubbish in NWN as it makes no difference - but that is my excuse for why all the dwarves and gnomes in Deglos use crossbows).

What that would mean is this:

Made some mistakes here, you can see them all below
*Shakes fists at people that quoted him and determines never to answer questions in the forums again*


Really just upset at myself for posting this before thinking

dreamingchristi wrote:I have strength 12 and thus a +1 bonus, I think. Does that mean my +1 mahogany bow with 2 mighty is as accurate as a +2 would be?

Nope, a +1 mahogany bow will add +1 to your accuracy, and +1 to the damage done (only +1 beacsue the mighty is a maximum strength bonus to be applied).

A +2 bow will add +2 to your accuracy and nothing to the damage done.

Which is better? It's a toss up. Do you need the additional +1 to hit? Or would the additional damage be better for you?

dreamingchristi wrote:

Alexyzar wrote:IA Mahogany bow gives you a +1 to hit and damage, a maximum of +2 due to any strength modification and on a critcal hit does 2 more points of damage. A plain +2 Bow is better at hitting, and if you have no strength bonus's to add to your arrow damage is probably your best bet, as the Massive Criticals of 2 is nice but not essential

I have strength 12 and thus a +1 bonus, I think. Does that mean my +1 mahogany bow with 2 mighty is as accurate as a +2 would be?

Mighty simply means the ability for the arrow to carry more STR damage to the target. A bow without mighty will carry no STR bonus damage, a bow with mighty 2 will carry up to 2 STR damage points. But only if you have that STR damage bonus, i.e. if you only have 12 STR, your STR damage bonus is just 1, so only 1 extra damage is added to the arrow. If you STR is 18, your STR damage bonus is 4, but still only 2 can be added to the arrow. It is supposed to represent the fact the bow is very strongly strung, but laws of physics mean that you still can't put all your strength into it without breaking the string.. or something like that.

TripleAught wrote:What that would mean is this:

Magohany Bow: +1 attack/+1 damage
Bow +2: +2 attack/+2 damage

So, if you have the choice, I would go with the Bow +2.

That is wrong. A plain +2 bow (or any ranged weapon) is just +2 to-hit, no extra damage. Extra damage is only added with the mighty property. In this case you would need a +2, Mighty 2 bow to get +2 attack/+2 damage.

The higher "to-hit" is useful for bypassing a creatures DR.

TripleAught wrote:Bow +2: +2 attack/+2 damage

This is actually incorrect. Ranged weapons are different from "normal" weapons in that any regular enchantment only adds to accuracy. To add damage, the bow has to have a mighty enchantment. So a Bow +2 would only give +2 to attack. Unless of course it also had some mighty on it (like a composite bow).

Dirk Cutlass wrote: If you intend on getting more than 2 attacks per round with your character then a bow is perhaps better (or sling even).

So what determines your maximum number of attacks per round then?

Oh, and do you leave yourself open to an attack of opportunity while reloading next to an enemy with both types of bow?

The other thing to consider between bow and crossbow is that small characters (halflings, gnomes, goblins, kobolds) can not use longbows. The shortbow is only d6 damage. But they can still use a heavy crossbow IIRC, which is d10 damage.

Curse you fast people. I realized it was wrong and couldn't get back in to make my edit before you all spammed up this thread with how wrong I was!

Guess I'm just bitter that it was so obvious.

dreamingchristi wrote:

Dirk Cutlass wrote: If you intend on getting more than 2 attacks per round with your character then a bow is perhaps better (or sling even).

So what determines your maximum number of attacks per round then?

Oh, and do you leave yourself open to an attack of opportunity while reloading next to an enemy with both types of bow?

Number of attacks per round is based on character class levels, for example a fighter at level 16 will have 4 main-weapon attacks per round. A mage at the same level only gets 2. Refer to the manual for the table on this.

You will still get Attacks of Opportunity with any ranged weapon (whatever skills or feats you have).

So one final question then. In NWN the only difference between heavy and light crossbows is weight and max damage?

Thanks for all your replies.

the biggest advantage to the +2 bow is that it will penetrate +2/something damage reduction, which isn't all that uncommon. If I had both of those bows and no other bows, I'd carry both, switching to the +2 bow as needed.

In PnP, rate of fire is different with light and heavy crossbows. In NWN rate is the same 1 per round, or 2 if you have rapid reload feat,

Dang it.. are you sure about this. I always tought that the Heavy was at the slow one shot every other round as in PnP. My Gnome will be very unhappy he sold that +2 heavy crossbow now.

Off thread. Why were xbows used more popular than bows.

You didnt need to practise with a Xbow. You could give an untrained soldier a crossbow and 5 minutes of training and he was reasonably proficient, i.e. he wouldnt kill himself. Therefore you could quickly have a deadly crossbox missile soldiery without having to maintain a trained bow armed body constantly.

With a long bow it takes a great deal of practise, physical strength and skill to use a long bow. You need a large amount of developed strength to even pull a 40lb long bow, and technique, I know ive tried and failed! You'd need a long bow with that 'pull' or similar to punch through heavy armour. I think the historical rate of fire was at least 4 maybe even 6 aimed arrows for a single bolt. Nob and Drakuul and probably others know more about this than me.

This isnt reflected in the game engine, and would be nice if it was.

Heronimous Fox wrote:Off thread. Why were xbows used more popular than bows.

You didnt need to practise with a Xbow. You could give an untrained soldier a crossbow and 5 minutes of training and he was reasonably proficient, i.e. he wouldnt kill himself. Therefore you could quickly have a deadly crossbox missile soldiery without having to maintain a trained bow armed body constantly.

With a long bow it takes a great deal of practise, physical strength and skill to use a long bow. You need a large amount of developed strength to even pull a 40lb long bow, and technique, I know ive tried and failed! You'd need a long bow with that 'pull' or similar to punch through heavy armour. I think the historical rate of fire was at least 4 maybe even 6 aimed arrows for a single bolt. Nob and Drakuul and probably others know more about this than me.

This isnt reflected in the game engine, and would be nice if it was.

*remembers taking archery in college* Shooting a bow without ripping off the skin on your forearm and actually hitting your target is no easy task. I guess if you lived in a tree and did nothing but practice all day for 75 to 100 years you would be pretty good. So that’s why elves are so good with a bow.

Rapid reload would be best for a wizard-type who was getting low # of attacks anyways. And of course for RP Be careful of that feat though, along with the off-hand rapier lie it is one of the falsities in the manual that have burned many, many people on PW's.

Crossbows in general are worse for most, though they do have one nice thing which is no matter how bad your strength is they will do the same damage (if you don't count the 'mighty'.) I don't understand mighty on crossbows anyway- doesn't a crossbow work with the same strength every time? Must be magic...

NWN made it so light crossbow is among the least-used weapons of all since if you can use the light you can use the heavy. To me the heavy crossbow should require some feat other than simple, but now I'm inserting worthless opinions...

One thing though is that sometimes there can be a tendency to have the weapons with the finest enchantments, be of ones that are less-used, like light crossbow, spear, light flail... in the thought of encouraging diversity I guess? But I am not sure if that is on Avlis or not.

Oh and I will always think a dwarf with a longbow looks funny!

Dirk Cutlass wrote:...The higher "to-hit" is useful for bypassing a creatures DR.

I'm fairly certain that it is the "+" of the ammunition that determines this. Pretty sure I've shot things with DR using a +3 crossbow and regular ammo and not made a dent before. Yes? No?

Pathos Street wrote:

Dirk Cutlass wrote:...The higher "to-hit" is useful for bypassing a creatures DR.

I'm fairly certain that it is the "+" of the ammunition that determines this. Pretty sure I've shot things with DR using a +3 crossbow and regular ammo and not made a dent before. Yes? No?

I believe this is one of the things bioware "broke" when they made NWN. The device throwing the ammunition is what counts for piercing DR, not the ammo. Backwards IMHO.

Pathos Street wrote:

Dirk Cutlass wrote:...The higher "to-hit" is useful for bypassing a creatures DR.

I'm fairly certain that it is the "+" of the ammunition that determines this. Pretty sure I've shot things with DR using a +3 crossbow and regular ammo and not made a dent before. Yes? No?

I would tend to agree with this, only because I believe that AA's can bypass DR with their enchanted arrows. I have no other information to base it on though.

Tigg wrote:Rapid reload would be best for a wizard-type who was getting low # of attacks anyways. And of course for RP Be careful of that feat though, along with the off-hand rapier lie it is one of the falsities in the manual that have burned many, many people on PW's.

Crossbows in general are worse for most, though they do have one nice thing which is no matter how bad your strength is they will do the same damage (if you don't count the 'mighty'.) I don't understand mighty on crossbows anyway- doesn't a crossbow work with the same strength every time? Must be magic...

NWN made it so light crossbow is among the least-used weapons of all since if you can use the light you can use the heavy. To me the heavy crossbow should require some feat other than simple, but now I'm inserting worthless opinions...

One thing though is that sometimes there can be a tendency to have the weapons with the finest enchantments, be of ones that are less-used, like light crossbow, spear, light flail... in the thought of encouraging diversity I guess? But I am not sure if that is on Avlis or not.

Oh and I will always think a dwarf with a longbow looks funny!

Just to clarify something, light and heavy crossbows do have a major difference. Light crossbows are medium weapons, whearas heavy are Large.
This means halflings and gnomes may never use a Heavy Crossbow.

Rapid reload will allow a xbow user to gain the normal amount of attacks/round, otherwise they suffer a -1 attack/round penalty. This would translate to a 16+ level fighter gaining 4 attacks/round as opposed to 3.

Rapid shot gives normal bow users an extra attack per round. For a fighter, this would become 5 attacks/round at 16+ level.

Rapid shot doesn't work with crossbows.