The World of Avlis

There are some really tough fighters out there. What sort of things do you really find key? What really makes a difference?

I am thinking of takeing Baal the tough as nails rotue. Baal is a cleric. Giveing up casting power (wis) to take a beating better (con). Picking feats that make him tougher... but other than toughness what is there? I got expertise.

I have two feats to spend and need to decide what would get me closer to the overall goal?
disarm/imp
blindfighting
great fortitude
imp expertise
called shot (arm)
resist energy

Maybe there is something I am over looking? A lot of things just seem too situational. Maybe that is it, I need to cover more situations?

I thought about going with more into str, takeing some barb lvls, getting cleave and it just did not sit well with me. Sounds like more melee presence, but it all boils down to offence. Seems like everything is centered around offence.

If I could just take toughness multiple times I would be set.

well if you build for epic levels you can grab epic DR, but i doubt that will be an option for Baal for a long time. I'd say pump constitution.

I would say resist adn imp expertise, or maybe disarm

Here I thought you were talking about making a 'prostitute' by making a 'touch' character.

storminj wrote:Here I thought you were talking about making a 'prostitute' by making a 'touch' character.

right, thanks for pointing that out.

well I suppose the tougher Baal is, the more clients he can handle in a row or at the same time.

Epic toughness you can take multiple times.

I think when considering a 'tough' character it would refer to his ability to either not get hit or get hit and roll with it. Perhaps if you took expertise that extra 5 to ac would help out quite a bit.

Tough Offense - stack up on to hit and damage feats

tough Defense - Con, save and AC feats.

Personally I go with defense for the less likely you are to fall the more shots you get to take.

WrathOG777 wrote:

storminj wrote:Here I thought you were talking about making a 'prostitute' by making a 'touch' character.

right, thanks for pointing that out.

Heh, I guess you didn't notice that you spelt "making" wrong as well while you were changing your title .

As for the tough fighter. We all know that knockdown is the best combat feat. As Baal is a dirty little goblin I guess he has a smaller size class so he would need imp knockdown as a minimum.

Don't forget power attack as well. On the whole I found that the key fighter featers (knockdown, disarm, powerattack, expertise etc.) all have a hefty penalty to your AB so they are only really useful against things you can hit quite easily and hence wouldn't have too much trouble with anyway. That is until you get to higher levels (i.e. 15 +) when your AB gets high enough to compensate for the penalties and you can also more easily beat discipline checks etc. Then these feats start to become really dangerous.

That means that they work best for characters with high BAB's and as Baal is a cleric/fighter I am not sure how that would pan out (would depend on the relative balance of levels).

I also think the simple feats are perhaps the most effective when it comes to damage so weapon focus, weapons specialisation and especially improved critical all make a significant difference to the amount of damage to you can hand out.

Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack are defensive feats that can be quite handy.

As you already mentioned, the energy resistance and saving throw boosters are defensively inclined, and if you are going to fight defensively, Improved Expertise is really useful.

If you're really going for all out defense, you could take Improved Parry and Skill Focus: Parry, too. And yes, I know parry is broken.

parry and expertise are mutualy exclusive

storminj wrote:Epic toughness you can take multiple times.

I think when considering a 'tough' character it would refer to his ability to either not get hit or get hit and roll with it. Perhaps if you took expertise that extra 5 to ac would help out quite a bit.

Tough Offense - stack up on to hit and damage feats

tough Defense - Con, save and AC feats.

Personally I go with defense for the less likely you are to fall the more shots you get to take.

He already has Expertise according to that list... I'd say don't bother with Improved Expertise, since the AB hit is monstrous...

Make sure your Discipline is jacked all the way up, and take Dodge, if you have the Dex for it. If not, I'd say Blindfighting (lifesaver against mages) and/or Disarm. Thing is, Baal would be using a smaller weapon than most, so Disarm won't be quite as effective...

I'd assume you use a shield, so that's some extra protection, and actually, you could take Improved Initiative as well, since if you act before the enemy, you're more likely to get off your knockdown/disarm before they can attack.

If it was IC and you had the class spot for it, you could also take some levels in barbarian... people underestimate the power of Taunt and Rage, plus you get a pretty big hp boost out of it.

Fuzz wrote:people underestimate the power of Taunt and Rage, plus you get a pretty big hp boost out of it.

Don't forget the power of tumble-AC...that's a potential 8 points of AC.

Fuzz wrote:[He already has Expertise according to that list... I'd say don't bother with Improved Expertise, since the AB hit is monstrous...

I'd disagree. I play a druid with Improved Expertise, and the AB hit is monstrous, yes, but if you are planning on just trying to survive while others kill things, IE is the way to go. -5 or -10 really doesn't matter if you have a low AB to begin with, you're only going to be hitting on very high rolls regardless. Standing there, actively engaged against the enemy while your archer and rogue friends shoot them and sneak attack them to death works quite well. I don't think Improved Expertise is a good soloing skill, but if you are in a group that's got people much better than your character at killing things anyway, Improved Expertise is pretty useful darn useful and worth taking for the extra +5 AC.

I was thinking of barbarian, but I would just end up with more offence and less defence.

Taunt and Rage, offence. -2 ac and +4 con are a wash, but it wares off so fast, so those extra hit points are more likely to get you killed than save you.

Extra = extra attack -> offence again.

All the barb really has going for it defencively is 1d12 hp, until much later lvl and the small dr, but that much is just not happening before lvl 30 or so.

Khaelindra wrote:Don't forget the power of tumble-AC...that's a potential 8 points of AC?

I did not think barbs got tumble.

Malathyre wrote:

Fuzz wrote:[He already has Expertise according to that list... I'd say don't bother with Improved Expertise, since the AB hit is monstrous...

I'd disagree. I play a druid with Improved Expertise, and the AB hit is monstrous, yes, but if you are planning on just trying to survive while others kill things, IE is the way to go. -5 or -10 really doesn't matter if you have a low AB to begin with, you're only going to be hitting on very high rolls regardless. Standing there, actively engaged against the enemy while your archer and rogue friends shoot them and sneak attack them to death works quite well. I don't think Improved Expertise is a good soloing skill, but if you are in a group that's got people much better than your character at killing things anyway, Improved Expertise is pretty useful darn useful and worth taking for the extra +5 AC.

See, that is the kind of thing I am going for. I am not focusing on defence so I can be great at soloing. I am trying to BE the line. I want folks to get scared and hide behind Baal. I want folks to wonder, "how could I ever kill that guy, is it even possible?"

So, all the responces that speak about "hey, take powerattack and cleave" How does that make baal harder to kill?

Look at any suggestion here and preface it with... If Baal was standing in front of an enemy that he could not hurt, no matter what abilities he had, would this suggestion make him last longer while his group is running for the hills?

Imp. Expertise.

Blindfight, the AC penalty that comes from blindness/darkness is pretty darned big and your expertise won't matter for squat if you get caught in it.

Further consider:
Darkness is a great retreating tool. If you can survive long in it even without ultravision, people will get away AND you'll be able to show how tough you are.

I am going to assume that you have Knock Down already. But it depends on what you are tring to do i.e. Kill stuff or meat shield and let others do it.

I have two feats to spend and need to decide what would get me closer to the overall goal?
disarm/imp
blindfighting
great fortitude
imp expertise
called shot (arm)
resist energy

Disarm is cool if you CvC as if you get good at it, it scares the heck out of other PC's that do not want to loose thier weapons. But CvMonster Knockdown is better, as well it has its uses for CvC.

I took Blindfighting for my one alt and it dose make a bit of a difference when fighting invisible critters or when blinded.

Great Foritude..I took this on my main and for the most part I am sorry that I did. Fighters get good fort saves and for the most part its the auto fail that gets you no matter how big your saves are, and there is alot of gear out there to raise save's if you think you need to.

If you want to up your AC with expertise I know alot of people that went this way and at higher levels when your AB is high its neat, but you need to think on what your tring to do...stand there and take it or kill stuff first. Both can work its just up to your play style.

Called shot is nice, but I think it helps the archer types better. I have seen a good archer take things down to a crawl with it, makes the run and shot work nice.

resist energy I think is a what 5 dr for one type of damage, but if you are always getting burn by acid arrows or some other pet peave energy attack go ahead, but you should have enough HP that 5 is not going to be that big a help.

The other thing to look at is there a skill down the road that you want like Sap, or Whirlwind, or PrC or, not to plan to far some of the epic feats. You may spend a feat now just to be ready for a bigger pay off later.

What happened to "Do whatever makes sense IC"?
Called shot gives you both arm and leg btw, you dont have to pick one.

Enverex wrote:What happened to "Do whatever makes sense IC"?

Metagaming and roleplaying are not mutually exclusive activities, and what makes sense is what is fun for the player. Often, what is fun for the player is what is useful. I can't begrudge anyone doing what is fun for them in terms of feat, skill, spell, or character selection.

On the rules for playing Avlis, there's written up examples of "good" and "bad" metagaming.

Picking the abilities that fit your character concept IS doing whatever makes sence IC.

Not to mention the fact that disucussions like this can help to do what is IC. It's not IC for Baal to walk around saying "I learned Improved Expertise." But it is IC for him to learn how to be harder to hit. Without knowledge of the mechanics of the feats, it's not so easy to do that.

DR is the way to survival.. physical DR and energy DR's both keep you in the field longer.
Unfortunately, monsters will allways be able to hit you, by virtue or AB or spell.
Thus, even a high AC is only half of the ticked, but at lower levels, +10 AC from imp. expertise are defenitely nothing to sneeze at.
Wich leaves you with the problem of getting rid of your attackers in the end.

Just some input...

WrathOG777 wrote:Look at any suggestion here and preface it with... If Baal was standing in front of an enemy that he could not hurt, no matter what abilities he had, would this suggestion make him last longer while his group is running for the hills?

Yes, and hence I say Improved Expertise is sort of a wash.

Why?

Because when facing AI opponents, they will attack whoever is hitting them the most often... that's how they're coded. So having all the meatshield prowess in the world won't do a damn thing if those AI monsters are attacking everyone BUT you, simply because they don't see you as much of a threat. Against other PCs, this doesn't apply, but still... last I checked, when you took Improved Expertise, you couldn't choose between which variant of Expertise you wanted to use, so if you turned it on, you'd get the full -10/+10, no chance to pick that -5/+5. Not sure if they changed that, haven't messed around with it in about a year, when SoU first came out.

Fuzz wrote:last I checked, when you took Improved Expertise, you couldn't choose between which variant of Expertise you wanted to use, so if you turned it on, you'd get the full -10/+10, no chance to pick that -5/+5. Not sure if they changed that, haven't messed around with it in about a year, when SoU first came out.

It has been changed now, and you can choose between Expertise or Improved Expertise. I'm really glad they made this change, as it's really useful for semi-defensive fighting and all out defensive fighting.

Want a tough character who can be the front line?

*points at Fifur BoulderShoulder*

Do that!