The World of Avlis

Say you have a bard who can cast level 3 spells. Now you start taking Pale Master levels. Now you can't add/remove spells while taking Pale Master levels. Now, you take a bunch of PM and the at level 40 you take a final Bard level. At that time, can you add / remove a whole bunch of bard spells to set it the way you want?

Yes!

Forgot to say... thanks!

I currently have a 3 lvl bard/ 12 lvl PM with 13 cha (14 cha if the stat point on the lvl up is counted). When I went to take my next lvl (bard), I was only presented with the option of 2nd lvl spells. From what I have read, and come to believe, I should have been able to choose 3rd lvl spells, if not 4th lvl spells (depending on if the new stat point is considered) since 4 lvl bard + 12/2 PM = 10 lvl caster right? It appears to me that it is not taking into account my PM lvls.

Can anyone provide input on how it should work, or what I am missing?

Thanks

Every 2 levels (on odd levels), the pale master gains additional spells per day, as if they had leveled in their previous spell caster class.

So, you should have spells per day as though you are a level 9 bard (up to third level). I'm not sure why you only have the option for level two spells.

I believe your known spells list at level up only uses bard levels to determine how many and what level spells you may cast, but spell slots per day uses Bard + 1/2 PM levels. Unfortunately, this may result in a situation where you have two 4th level spell slots, but don't know any 4th level spells. You can, however, use metamagic feats to take advantage of those slots (e.g. cast an extended third level spell, which burns a fourth level slot).

RCon wrote:I believe your known spells list at level up only uses bard levels to determine how many and what level spells you may cast, but spell slots per day uses Bard + 1/2 PM levels. Unfortunately, this may result in a situation where you have two 4th level spell slots, but don't know any 4th level spells. You can, however, use metamagic feats to take advantage of those slots (e.g. cast an extended third level spell, which burns a fourth level slot).

This is correct. And this is why you do not see many sorc/PMs and bard/PMs. Very little can be done as it is a hardcoded limitation.

Great. Thank you all for the information

maxinion wrote:

RCon wrote:I believe your known spells list at level up only uses bard levels to determine how many and what level spells you may cast, but spell slots per day uses Bard + 1/2 PM levels. Unfortunately, this may result in a situation where you have two 4th level spell slots, but don't know any 4th level spells. You can, however, use metamagic feats to take advantage of those slots (e.g. cast an extended third level spell, which burns a fourth level slot).

This is correct. And this is why you do not see many sorc/PMs and bard/PMs. Very little can be done as it is a hardcoded limitation.

Ah, yes. I always forget this difference, having only played a Wizard/PM.

szabot wrote:Ah, yes. I always forget this difference, having only played a Wizard/PM.

These are the only PMs that count anyway

UMD + Bard Song + Tumble + Epic Mage Armor + Bone Skin + Dex Build + Improved Expertise + Improved Crit + Improved knockdown + Skill Point Options = An unbelievable AC, someone opposite of milksop and access to all spells from all classes in the game….the limitations of wizards and sorcerers are obvious . You can't beat that even with a big stick - i.e., whether you’re a dex build or not.

I would take your Charisma up to at least 16 and later on supplement with additional charisma gear. Rest with the gear on then buff with Eagle's Splendor then you can replace your gear at will without loosing the spell slots you gained from your charisma gear. Take your Bard levels as high as you want for the spells you want.

Is it a broken build? Run with Tromso and decide.

Soshus Eblum wrote:Take your Bard levels as high as you want for the spells you want.

Yeah, the solution is really this. It can definitely work, and there have been some good examples of that. But, the inconvenience is a turn-off to some. Certainly not a show-stopper though.

Since this is NWN and not Avlis GD, I can see the build being ok. Caster level is so important here though for spells, especially when dispelling works. The lack of militant, plus the cap to dodge and ab from regular buffs would make it only so-so here . "Unbelievable AC" ... Improved Expertise turns off when casting or using another offensive feat, so +10ac/-10 ab is only good for a wall that can't hit back well (don't believe the ab on the character sheet as a caster if it looks that good. The sheet lies quite often. Check the numbers in combat info). Bone Skin is sweet though.

I'd still take bard song in a bottle any day (even with the ac being a dodge bonus), and perma-immune to crits? I hate ju!

Soshus Eblum wrote:UMD + Bard Song + Tumble + Epic Mage Armor + Bone Skin + Dex Build + Improved Expertise + Improved Crit + Improved knockdown + Skill Point Options = An unbelievable AC, someone opposite of milksop and access to all spells from all classes in the game….the limitations of wizards and sorcerers are obvious . You can't beat that even with a big stick - i.e., whether you’re a dex build or not.

...

Is it a broken build? Run with Tromso and decide.

Having played a bard/palemaster build much along these lines on Avlis, I'd suggest that it's not so much a broken build as one that is powerful within a limited scope: very resilient against most melee opponents but often painfully vulnerable against comparably-levelled primary casters, multiclassed or otherwise. So yes, beating such a character with a big stick won't get you very far. A Greater Fireburst, on the other hand... *eyes maxinion*

"Disappear", Rebuff if dispelled, Time Stop if anyone can find me, I have mordisfunkdiswiz too :^) , Crit so fast and so many times, while his ears bleed and he is thrown on his back so many times he should have a mattress tied to it like a street walker...a bit of some very cool scrolls if needed and that's a big IF...and a few other tricks But hey, Tromso is not at ill will with anyone anymore, in fact he goes WELL out of his way to gain friends and to NOT make enemies...please don't take any of this crap IC AT ALL. The hardest thing for me is what scrolls / wands / spells to use to kill things (without smacking them around physically to add some spice) and which ones to punch my AC into the upper percent of the 1%'ers.

Soshus Eblum wrote:"Disappear", Rebuff if dispelled, Time Stop if anyone can find me, I have mordisfunkdiswiz too :^) , Crit so fast and so many times, while his ears bleed and he is thrown on his back so many times he should have a mattress tied to it like a street walker...a bit of some very cool scrolls if needed and that's a big IF...and a few other tricks But hey, Tromso is not at ill will with anyone anymore, in fact he goes WELL out of his way to gain friends and to NOT make enemies...please don't take any of this crap IC AT ALL. The hardest thing for me is what scrolls / wands / spells to use to kill things (without smacking them around physically to add some spice) and which ones to punch my AC into the upper percent of the 1%'ers.

Wait, what? How does a bard/PM get access to 9th level wizard spells? Or is that using purchased scrolls...

scrolls

Alright Soshus, what is the highest AC you have ever gotten then for Tromso?

Cougar wrote:

szabot wrote:Ah, yes. I always forget this difference, having only played a Wizard/PM.

These are the only PMs that count anyway

*shakes fist* Untruths you speak!

I just lvl'ed and took Epic Mage Armor so I am still figuring out what classes offer spells to increase AC by other means than what the epic feat includes or before the dodge portion caps. Besides...FOIG