The World of Avlis

This thread:
Subject: Character appearance

Got me thinking.
What is possible in these types of "MMORPGs" (though I prefer Mini-multiplayer-online-RPG)?
Is there a way to create an experience where a casual player and hardcore player can get a similar experience?
Can a casual player have a meaningful role in these servers? How?

First off (since you quoted the thread that was locked), IMO we can't please everyone here, and don't even try. Yes, you were making this a general question, but your posts from the other thread show what prompted it (You used the Sims as an example? Dude!). We may lose some players because we don't make everything available to everyone simply because they want it, but I also think that is why Avlis is still around and improving every day.

We have many regular "casual" players here who are happy to log in for a few hours a week or less. They all can make quite a difference to the world in that short time. You don't need to be epic to do it either.

What constitutes "hardcore" in your example? Do you think that you and others in your classification only play a few hours and everyone else must be putting in an insane 50 per week?

Some "Casual vs HC" balancing that has been done includes:

- Weekly quests: If you log in once per week and do the quest, at the end of it all you'll have gotten there no faster or slower than the "hardcore" gamer who logs in and is held by the same restraints of the quest.

-XP Cap: You can only earn a certain amount of XP from kills per week.

- Also, if you do not make a certain amount of XP with your character that week (or take a few weeks off), you will get a bonus XP cookie on login. That's pretty good, and a somewhat newer feature.

- If you earn more than 150% of your weekly cap, you suffer a penalty on the next week's cap.

- You can recycle busted weapons that you find for intermediate ingredients for crafting, so you can use them in your own crafts (and save some time there) OR sell them for a profit to someone else.

Avlis isn't about instant gratification, and never has been. If you want something, your character just has to make SOME In-character effort at it. This could be as simple as asking another character, or doing a bit more such as joining a guild, or doing a quest, or having a DM involved. Alternately, you could put in the work for doing it yourself, and many people do just that. Just as many use one of the other means I listed there.

Like anything, those who put forth the effort and initiative to do something will reap the rewards a bit more than those who do not. It's a fact of life. However, it doesn't mean that casual players are shut out. There are plenty who can be quite involved in the goings on without having to log in more than a handful of hours here or there.

As a casual player, I'd say that just about anything is possible, but you can't do everything. So you've got to find out what you enjoy the most, and make a choice about what to commit to and what not to. Also, it's important to make connections with others, help them out a little, and so gain those contacts who can get you what you can't yourself. A casual player who focus on specific objectives should very well be able to have a great impact on others, and the world. "Hardcore" players who are more likely to do a lot of things at once since they've got the time, and therefore spread out their influence more. Sure, those with enormous amounts of IG time can do more than "casuals", but that doesn't mean it's impossible for the latter to have as much fun or influence as the former - it just takes a bit more time and planning ahead.

Also, don't forget that a huge amount of IC interaction and work is done on the boards; taverns, guilds, etc. It's much easier to squeeze in a few minutes many times a day than it is to find several hours of game-time. That way, you can discuss, make plans, trade, gather information, make connections, etc., without having to log in. Those precious IG moments can thus be devoted to completing that which has been planned on boards, which makes playing more fun and rewarding.

i guess you can say i've been a hardcore gamer...but there are times when i would have considered myself a casual gamer as well. i know a lot of people that don't have a lot of time to put into avlis...

what's been most important for me, for them too i'd imagine, is the CONTACTS. the RP here is what makes the game--not the systems, not the quests, not the dungeons--the RP.

even if you don't have a lot of time, when you take the time you do have to meet people and make friends you'll find the world a whole lot more satisfying and a lot richer. once you make a few friends the time you do have ends up being full of chatting, RP, getting involved in plots you're friends are in, dungeon crawling with others...etc.

as has been said, no matter how much time you have to play--anything is possible and any character can make a contribution to the world.

*lurks*

what's been most important for me, for them too i'd imagine, is the CONTACTS. the RP here is what makes the game--not the systems, not the quests, not the dungeons--the RP.

even if you don't have a lot of time, when you take the time you do have to meet people and make friends you'll find the world a whole lot more satisfying and a lot richer. once you make a few friends the time you do have ends up being full of chatting, RP, getting involved in plots you're friends are in, dungeon crawling with others...etc.

as has been said, no matter how much time you have to play--anything is possible and any character can make a contribution to the world.

There are very well-role-played PCs who are more interested in quests and dungeons than in making friends or chatting up other PCs. That's not to say that they don't, and the players may enjoy making new friends, but they may have other goals in mind for their characters, for their limited playing time. Similarly, there may be a small group of casual players who are perfectly happy to chat among themselves with simple *nods* to other players on the server. I think a large part of the misunderstandings on these boards stems from how people define "role-playing," but that is a whole other topic unto itself.

It's been pointed out elsewhere that XP and leveling are not necessarily the primary focus on Avlis (though it may seem that way to a casual player), and that's fine, but it then begs the OP's question, namely, can casual players, who do not have more than a few hours a week to throw at Avlis, find a meaningful/fulfilling role on our PW?

Stebby Surehand wrote:

what's been most important for me, for them too i'd imagine, is the CONTACTS. the RP here is what makes the game--not the systems, not the quests, not the dungeons--the RP.

even if you don't have a lot of time, when you take the time you do have to meet people and make friends you'll find the world a whole lot more satisfying and a lot richer. once you make a few friends the time you do have ends up being full of chatting, RP, getting involved in plots you're friends are in, dungeon crawling with others...etc.

as has been said, no matter how much time you have to play--anything is possible and any character can make a contribution to the world.

There are very well-role-played PCs who are more interested in quests and dungeons than in making friends or chatting up other PCs. That's not to say that they don't, and the players may enjoy making new friends, but they may have other goals in mind for their characters, for their limited playing time. Similarly, there may be a small group of casual players who are perfectly happy to chat among themselves with simple *nods* to other players on the server. I think a large part of the misunderstandings on these boards stems from how people define "role-playing," but that is a whole other topic unto itself.

It's been pointed out elsewhere that XP and leveling are not necessarily the primary focus on Avlis (though it may seem that way to a casual player), and that's fine, but it then begs the OP's question, namely, can casual players, who do not have more than a few hours a week to throw at Avlis, find a meaningful/fulfilling role on our PW?

Well I guess it depends on your goals, right?

If you're one of the aforementioned dungeon-crawling focused PCs, then your casual time would best be spent finding a group that meets up on x day at x time to go dungeon crawling. You'll get the most of your time and match your goals. Now, by being a part of said group, you can then find a meaningful/fulfilling role by being there on the appointed nights and helping out other characters who may play differently but look to show up on those nights. If you're lucky, you may even have a steady DM influence upon those nights.

Alternately, you can get me a sandwich, if it doesn't take too much time

The interesting part to me is how different folks define RolePlay. Some can be quite happy with a Ranger sitting on the benches at Elf Gate talking about the recent goings on in Mikona. Others can do much the same sitting in a pub. For me, its more about DOING what the PC would normally be doing.

A Mage might likely be caught in the Library or hashing out details of a new spell in heated discussion. The Ranger is one that I imagine patrolling the far reaches of the territory, with a few short stories in a Pub, if she talks to any "city folk" at all. That could be a very solitary "RP".

Then you have to throw in the Player. We all have differing opinions on the "right way" to play this NWN. To put it plainly: Some of us can't type. That makes In Game conversation difficult, and possibly impossible. How does that change the way the PC is played? Then throw in Timezones! My game times might not ever overlap yours just because we live in opposing Hemispheres.

In the end, there are too many factors going into how a PC is expressed to call any one way The Correct Way. When I log in I can gravitate to the location I feel like participating in, seek out the PCs and Players that fit that style of play, pursue the goals that my PC finds important (or that I find important as a Player). And I begin in the Vault, choosing the PC that fits my mood.

Avlis is a game for me. I sit down to play after I've been out in the Real World building up frustration and Avlis gives me a place to relax, bash, interact, develop, wander, explore and express.

Thank you, Team.
Thank you, FIOG.
Thank you, Texans.
Thank you, Fellow Players.

I don't have a lot of in game time. I am allowed to play two nights a week, for 3 hours or so. often I don't get to play any more than that. Sometime I don't even get to play that much.

Because my playtime is the same every week, I was able to form a group. I started posting on the forum that I was going to be on the server and playing a few hours before my playtime each day. I invited anyone who wanted to to come play with me. for a while I played alone, but I kept posting. after a while, other players started showing up at those times, sending me tells so we could meet up. soon there was quite a group of us some nights, while others I still played alone. when enough players started showing up regularly, DMs started to come too. We now have a solid playerbase on both my playing nights most of the time. we often have a DM as well. More than I ever hoped for.

Thats how the Tuesday/Thursday night events on the underdark got started. One player, only able to play certain times a few hours a week, and tired of playing alone. I am still a casual player, and a lot of the time I don't even make the events myself, but they continue never the less.

Now I almost always have players to party with during my playtimes. When I get casual playtime on other nights, I know players and characters I can find on any server and send tells to so we can get together. Am I a major influence on Avlis as a whole? Probably not. But I always have good parties, good RP, and good times. all without needing to grind. as for good weapons, armour, and other trinkets, it's always been about who you know, not how much gold you have. Parties get you XP. Parties attract DMs. Contacts are everything in the world of Avlis, and even antisocial, Kill On Site on all servers but one characters like mine can make friends and reap the benifits.

While I like the fact that people are debating the current design choices on Avlis, I actually meant this as a more abstract question about the future of MMORPGs and how NWN has opened a new interesting field.

Continue to discuss either though. I think both are valid.

Also, I usually go with the design philosophy that if someone doesn't get it or has a problem with your design then it's the design that's flawed and not the person but that also depends on who you want to get it. It's also a bit more of a commercial philosophy but makes for more usable games/UIs.

It has to be said there's a certain lower boundary for dumbing down a design or a game. It's a CD drive, after all... not a cupholder.

ScottG wrote:Also, I usually go with the design philosophy that if someone doesn't get it or has a problem with your design then it's the design that's flawed and not the person but that also depends on who you want to get it.

Gonna have to disagree, for these reasons:

A lot of people don't "get" roleplaying or "get" IC/OOC separation or "get" metagaming (and "get" that its bad and to be avoided rather than just another advantage to be exploited.) And there's really no way around that kind of thing without turning it into a completely different game.

Not only that but you will at times come across a user that cannot be satisfied or attempting to satisfy them angers and alienates your other users.

Just trying to point out, its not always your design that's flawed.

Not sure what you mean Spool.

And I partially agree with you Sephira.
At the same time, it's the job of the designer of the world to make sure the player knows what is expected of them. This needs to be communicated to the player in a clear way.
Many times what the user wants isn't what they are asking for and the designer needs to figure out what that is.
If your only option is to do something that alienates more people than it would satisfy then you'd obviously go for the more popular choice but you should also know that
many times the most vocal of your community can be a minority.

We have a very vocal majority here.

At the end of the day, Avlis isn't designed to be the end-all be-all for everyone. We don't claim that it is, nor do we want it to be. There are plenty of people who would rather play WoW, RP rape and other disturbing sexual acts, or even just want a place where they can hit level 60 in a few months. We aren't going to change Avlis to fit any of those groups.

We do change and add things almost constantly. Our latest haks and the new installer are in the very final stages of testing before they get released. We have a major module update going in within the next few days, and we are constantly striving to keep the organic feel of the world.

Avlis is a place where immersion is held in high regard, it's a place where one can (as many have described it) become a character in an epic novel. Some of us are bit players, some are part of the foundation, but that is what Avlis is designed to be and it's done very well for us over the years.

Avlis simply isn't going to be changed to accommodate everyone, that's an impossible task and not within the scope of the Avlis vision.

When FOIG, Inc. was formed and took over Avlis from its original owners we made a handful of drastic changes to the hardware running the servers, the speed of the internet, and the hosting of the forums and wiki ... we didn't attempt to change the World, though, nor will we. If anything we are now the stewards of the Vision, and we take our role very seriously.

Personally, I've been a part of the Avlis community since 2004. I've hosted several meets, and consider many of the people I've met here dear personal friends. I love the community and I am fiercely protective of it. As both an Elder DM (the highest rank of DM before Head DM) here and a founding member and executive officer on the board of FOIG, Inc. Avlis has become a great deal more than a hobby. It is a 60 to 70 hr/wk job, which I do entirely without pay.

So, as well meaning as some of the posts in here are regarding changing our world to suit others, I feel my staff's toes being stepped on and their constant and hard work being ignored. I hope this post clears up a few things and that I am not forced to lock this topic, as I was the other one.

Belasco
Elder DM
President FOIG, Inc.

I think people are missing the original questions and don't see the reason to lock the topic if it's a discussion of play types or design styles.
I don't think your post, along with a few others straying off topic, really hit any of the original topics/questions:

What is possible in these types of "MMORPGs" (though I prefer Mini-multiplayer-online-RPG)?
Is there a way to create an experience where a casual player and hardcore player can get a similar experience?
Can a casual player have a meaningful role in these servers? How?

Yet again, I'll state this thread is not directly about Avlis but MMORPGs and how NWN persistent worlds has changed this. Specifically in regards to "roleplay" (define how you wish in your post) and "character" and how those characters fit into the overall story of a persistent world.

Those who are work on Avlis, or have been around for a long time, should not feel threatened. It's a discussion.

It's your server.

If anyone is reading in some sort of "You need to change your server because of this" tone, then it's not the intention. I'm merely a curious game designer asking questions and getting feedback.

Everyone can read the information as they wish. If you see it relates to to how Avlis is run in some fashion and find it useful feedback, feel free to use it, if it's not then throw it away. Either way its someone's opinion so it probably has some merit unless it turns into some flame war and Hitler or Nazis are mentioned. When that happens, feel free to lock the topic (not counting this reference ).

I've been playing games for quite some time. MMO's i still think of as something new even though I've played FF-XI for about 6? years.

No matter how much you say a world isn't designed around leveling... to some extent it is designed around people who have achieved max level after a certain time. I say this because every PW/MMO/etc. wants to retain "subscribers" and to do this you need to add continual new content to challenge them.

Games like PoTBS (Pirates of The Burning Seas) are designed around RvR (small & large group and 1v1). At one point their system allowed low level players to actually be a challenge for high level players in combat, in part of their balancing this fell to the wayside without too much crying. This was because the game took a grand total of about 20 hours to go from level 1 to 50 (max) if you had a small group doing missions together for EXP.

Games like FF-XI (Final Fantasy Eleven) are designed around PvE (solo, 6, 18 or 30+ events). Adding PvP to this kind of a game becomes a very large problem in terms of balancing, what is "fair" in PvE may not be in PvP. By introducing grid events even weekend players can obtain worthwhile gear as long as they are persistant. The community of daily players will still compare Epeen but it's not required to get by.

Now as i've been playing Avlis for a few weeks so I may have a few things wrong. The hardcore player will "fund" their items and reach their exp cap... but many would feel empty that they "ran out of goals". The Weekender can still finish their exp cap and schedule time to make it for DM events to get their gear if a little more slowly.

A "Hardcore" gamer in my book is one that wants their instant satisfaction. They want to see how to achieve their goal and then go about doing it irregardless of the time spent.

The "Casual" gamer would like to get online just to play the game. If that means they're out grinding with friends, talking in town, or working on econ they enjoy more playing the game, than they do achieving their goals.

The Casual gamer will always "fit" in the HC community and believe it or not for an MMO you need them. They're the ones that get the simple item you would rather pay than collect yourself, and the ones likely buying your hand-me-downs. Some of the simple things to add for Casual gamers are easy to find collection quests, "grind" events where you spent a short amount of time every few days to work towards a goal, and potentially events which use items which acrue without your character being online.

The Hardcore gamer will always complain that the casual gamer is ruining their experience by being "in the way" or "wasting x-item they could make better use of". They would like to see events which might be on a weekly rotation so that while they will repeat events for items for themselves & friends, they can rotate between multiple events so they don't repeat the same one too often.

... well now that i've meandered along for a while. Avlis does many things right. The work done by the team to keep higher level players entertained has obviously paid off (or they wouldn't keep doing it, and players would stop at a certain point). There is a limit to when your useful in events which is somewhat disheartening [IE: demons attack that you cannot hurt with any spell or weapon you have] Only being able to use consumable heal items if your much more than 5 levels lower than the people your with is just part of what we pay for the system we play in.

... so for real. Kudos to the Avlis team for keeping it interesting to the people who've played longer than me, and creating this great world.

ScottG wrote:...

Yeah, whatever. Up yours Quisling!


Now that that part is done with: No, I don't think casual and hardcore players should have the same experience. If they do, it means the world is very limited. It should be possible, however, too make a world where both types of players have a good time. The world-impact factor will always be difficult; the larger the world is, the less any individual player is likely to get enough attention and opportunity to make a difference. It's a question of game complexity and GMs available. The hardcore gamer is therefore likely to be vastly more influential than casuals in a huge game (which would be what you want if the goal is to make money out of your game). That's not to say a casual player cannot make a meaningful contribution to the game-world, but it does become more difficult to ensure this as the world itself grows.

As for what's possible, it's tempting to say "anything". Any single game, however, need to focus on a few things as to not become too big and complex to handle. The good thing is that online games can be easily expanded from it's initial state as long as the development tools are well-made. This allows the developers to expand over time without becoming so overwhelmed by the size and complexity of it all that the game cannot even launch. The bad thing is that games that have been out for a long time become benchmarks of how things should be done, and that start-ups are inevitably compared to the established ones. Lack of opportunities compared to something else is a factor that may drive players away.

For these reasons, any MMORPGs need to focus on some niche they want to cater to. As they expand, more systems can be implemented to incorporate a larger player-base, but one shouldn't fall into the trap of wanting to please everyone. An administrative system need to be in place and expanded as the world grows; that includes GMs, coders and story-writers. Just as important are the development tools. These need to be easy to use, and powerful enough to allow rapid expansion and altering of all game-elements. As computing power is ever increasing, increased automation of tasks is possible. Future games will therefore allow more interaction, with player's enhanced ability to alter aspects of the game and build permanent structures in-game a very interesting aspect. Just look at how people enjoy to alter their avatars, even being willing to pay good money to do so. Or how people in Avlis are willing to work for RL years to save up gold, design housing and wait for their building applications to be accepted and implemented! Unfortunately, computing power may not increase rapidly enough to handle an also exponentially growing complexity of the world itself. Growth-rates must therefore be limited!

The way to handle growth-rates is two-fold: 1) Limit the number of players. 2) Limit the impact players can have on the world. 2) is the way to go, but also the most difficult since many players want to have an impact. I might get back to it later...

I've got to go >.<

Played a bit of "Shadowbane" with a few friends a while back.
Very PvP focused but pretty interesting in how it would allow player influence on the world, as you could gain territory with guilds and you would need various types of players/classes to do this.
Had a very gang type mentality where you were sort of forced into a guild for protection purposes or else people would hunt you down and kill you for experience and gold.
The way they dealt with newer players is they would have a n00b island where there was no PvP and it was all lower level characters. After you got past a certain level you would teleport to the main land and usually be killed.

In the end it was super easy to level up and get to a respectable level where you were at least a threat to higher levels and if they played poorly you might be able to beat them. This and the various tatics you could use with groups, made it a very interesting game to play with though fairly one noted.

I also heard tell of another MMO type game where you "created" your spells/abilities. Not sure what it was called but it sounded like it mixed the leveling of RPGs with a bit of strategy so that you could use spells/abilities in intelligent ways to beat enemies. This always sounds interesting but I haven't really seen a good implementation of this.

Back to the original question of Hardcore vs Casual gamers ....I played several MMOs and found them suited to the hardcore gamers especialy when they charged a monthly fee. These games tended to be very grinding and level focused ...it quickly found them boring ....boaring


I guess this is why I liked and stayed at Avlis, when I have time I can play more but as a casual gamer my character has an IC reason to pop up and meet others , or kill and steal from them

I have been here, coming up for 5 years and my character has progressed slowly at time and rapidly at others, either way I wouldnt be here if it wasnt fun and thats why i am not on the other games, sometime hardcore gameing can be like a job

I play Avlis cause I like to RP.

I play Mabinogi cause i like to power level, and to hell with all this RP bullshit.

I play EVE cause I like Sci/Fi and its the closest thing to being in space.

I play Avlis cause I like to RP, and socialize, and hack on stuff.

I don't play Sims, cause I really don't want to control when my PC takes a shit.

I play Avlis cause I like the RP.

Brayon, how do you define RP?
It's a fairly nebulous term.

ScottG wrote:Brayon, how do you define RP?
It's a fairly nebulous term.

agreed to some RPing is just playing a game you can chat with your friends during, while to others it is about immersion and playing make believe at another level. Also many people also switch off between the two styles or find a medium between them.

one or the other is not the CORRECT way to RP.. they are just how different people look at the term RP....

2 more cents to the bucket

My definition of RP.

1. Creating a character that I find appealing in some way.
2. Immersing myself into his/her world.
3. Becoming that PC so that while I am playing them I think like them.
4. Letting the PC live their life, with minor alterations by my wants.

Wikipedia defines roleplaying (in the context of roleplaying games, like this one) as:

A role-playing game is a game in which the participants assume the roles of characters and collaboratively create stories. Participants determine the actions of their characters based on their characterization, and the actions succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, they may improvise freely; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the games.

Basically, to play a role, a kind of acting.