The World of Avlis

Something really set me off today and made me think on the changeling race. Seeing how when a changeling takes a form its not the same as a doppleganger where the being becomes what they are mimicing ((had one hell of a time dealing with those things on Hala)) but are still in fact a changeling.

I know shooting arrows and other missles as a rat is some pretty dumb cheese as would be casting spells. I mean just how can a dog speak arcane? ((BTW im not sniping anyone for doing this as I have never come across an arcane dog, unless you count Fortano's Mom ))

With the more innate abillities though like evasion, rage, and HiPS wouldnt it be justified using these skills as any form? The skills come from innate abillity that do not require certain limbs or vocal cords or even proper display of int. It just seems natural to me that actions like those would cross over forms regardless of the one being taken.

I think the main points here are:

The creature does not gain the abilities of the form it takes, only its appearance. So if you mimic a creature with some special powers, you do not have these powers. You just look like that creature.

On the other hand, you do retain the powers you had in the first place - within reason. So, if you had HiPS, then the creature you become has that as well.

However, I said - within reason. If you become a dog, you cannot talk, simply because the dog does not have the vocal cords for you to speak, even if you do have. Similarly, the dog cannot fire arrows (it can't hold the bow) and it cannot cast spells (it cannot do the movements or say the incantation).

Also, if you are a Changeling with HiPS and you become a dog - it can still HiPS. The same for other creatures - of a similar size. However, a large creature, like a dragon is not likely to be able to hide in plain sight - unless it is a lot better at HiPS than the Changeling.

Remember that a Shadow, Wraith, Shadow Dragon, etc. are etherial creatures, not normal flesh and blood. There is a huge difference between these creatures and normal flesh and blood ones.

Lastly, it is important to remember that this is not an illusion - the Changeling really does take on the form of the creature it mimics. This explains the problem with the dog using a bow. If a Changeling dies, it does not change back to its natural form as a corpse (nor a puddle of goo, like Odo). What you see is the corpse of whatever it was when it died.

You almost have the answer in your question.

Changeling don't take abilities from the creatures they copy, only their form/shape. So, yes, casting spells in, say, animal form is rather cheesing.

The HiPS ability is NOT an innate ability. You have to train for that, hence the PRC of Shadow Dancers and the required Feats. So, the same process applies to HiPS as for your example about casting spells.

HiPS says, you can hide whenever there are enough shadows for you to hide, in close proximity. By NO way it states that you can hide, whenever, wherever you want.

This is one of the few gaps in the NwN engine that can be hardly rebuild that makes players able to do that at will, despite some impossibilities, such as bright lightning or no cover at all. So it has become a common mistake to think this way, due to NwN limitations.

So as said NH4, size is the matter, common sense rules.

nonscience beat me to it

I will probably make a shadow dancer's guide for the wiki when I have more free time, maybe I'll cover all of these aspects there, and then send it to the team to verify it


If you (the gnome) know how to shadow dance and take the shape of an elf, you'll still be able to do it as an elf...

If you take the shape of a dog, I would say you can't... but NightHawk says you can, so go with that

If you're not a shadow dancer and you take the shape of one, you can't hide in plain sight. If you take the shape of a mage, you can't cast spells...

There is a feat named Natural Spell, which enables you to complete the somatic and verbal components of a spell while in wild shape. It does not, however allow you to speak or use magic items unless the creature is naturally capable of doing so. I just wondered if this could be applied to changelings, thus enabling spellcasting while in changed form.

The trick is to use a form that can talk, and is known as a natural spellcaster.

Sure, that would probably work... like nonscience and I said, use common sense


If you turn into a dragon, I'm pretty sure you're supposed to have true sight, and that dragon's breath... even if you don't actually have it, a DM could help you roleplaying it.

If you turn into a gnome battlemage... completly different story

Rain&Clouds wrote:Sure, that would probably work... like nonscience and I said, use common sense


If you turn into a dragon, I'm pretty sure you're supposed to have true sight, and that dragon's breath... even if you don't actually have it, a DM could help you roleplaying it.

No no...you're not supposed to have those things at all, remember, you don't gain any of the abilities of a copied creature as a changeling.

We're not going to help you cheese them:0)

I've always felt that a Changeling was a little more fluid then how most people describe them here. In the case of the mage dog? I would think that a changeling could retain the shape, but alter part of itself to allow speech and therefore to cast spells. Of course, anyone watching a dog this would think that it was ~NOT~ a plain dog.

Having said that, a Changeling in an animal form cannot talk. That ruling has been made. So, by that nature, it could not alter itself to speak, let alone cast spells with a verbal component. Thems the rules.

Likewise it is a similar situation with coping shadow creatures. The game engine allows a Changeling to copy a shadow or shadow wraith, etc... However, the Teams ruling was to not do this. Same with furniture and combat dummies / archery targets.

HiPS is an extention of stealth. To be bigger then a house in a highly populated area, saying that your "sneaking" around, is pretty implausable, although the game engine does allow it. Something larger then most houses, and twice as tall is going to be hard pressed to "sneak." I'd suggest only using invisibility (potions, scrolls, rings of, etc..) to not be seen in public places in a form of that size (no HiPS with it). At least then there would be a good reason that not everyone would see the elephant sitting in the living room, although, some would, and that would give the dragon a "real" presence that isn't just conveniently ignored. This actually gives everyone a nice RP hook, and allows for consequences for someone mimicing a Dragon form in a highly populated area.

Now, if that dragon were in a large very dark cave, without a village of people all around them, it probably could get away with stealthing, because of the cave size and darkness.

Smaller creatures? HiPS should be pretty easy for them. Although there are no added bonuses HiPS can be used to mimic how a mouse gets lost in the grass running about.

It would be impossible to police what Changeling forms can and cannot use what abilities, and when in any given form. Some abilities / skills/ feats, etc... cannot even be turned off. With the hundreds of forms, who's going to even agree which form can or cannot do what ability?!! The Team doesn't want hundreds of PM's saying, "I saw a Wooly Oxen use Greater Expertise. Unless he learned that as a bovine, this is cheesing!"

The bottom line is that you can use your abilites as you have them, within the general limitations given by the Team. I've mentioned most of them above. I think that's pretty reasonable.

Wombatforhire wrote:

Rain&Clouds wrote:Sure, that would probably work... like nonscience and I said, use common sense


If you turn into a dragon, I'm pretty sure you're supposed to have true sight, and that dragon's breath... even if you don't actually have it, a DM could help you roleplaying it.

No no...you're not supposed to have those things at all, remember, you don't gain any of the abilities of a copied creature as a changeling.

We're not going to help you cheese them:0)

Even better then! Well to my point anyway, not to changelings

CPU wrote:HiPS is an extention of stealth. To be bigger then a house in a highly populated area, saying that your "sneaking" around, is pretty implausable, although the game engine does allow it. Something larger then most houses, and twice as tall is going to be hard pressed to "sneak." I'd suggest only using invisibility (potions, scrolls, rings of, etc..) to not be seen in public places in a form of that size (no HiPS with it). At least then there would be a good reason that not everyone would see the elephant sitting in the living room, although, some would, and that would give the dragon a "real" presence that isn't just conveniently ignored. This actually gives everyone a nice RP hook, and allows for consequences for someone mimicing a Dragon form in a highly populated area.

But is this not the point in having stupid high abilities? I have put everything I have into hide and MS, and I think after a while, due to the way HiPS works (partial merge to the shadow plane) that with skill, the changeling COULD use HiPS/Stealth in populated areas. Remember, HiPS isn't just hiding, it's supernatural hiding...

Second, I DID roleplay sideffects of a form that big hiding, gusts of air blowing, rain not hitting people that he is stood over, people walking into his tail etc...

Not talking as an animal and such I can understand as you don't physically have the ability to, but as a Dragon you DO still have those abilities. In comparison, a Wemic (still a lot smaller I understand, but it's an example) gets a BONUS to it's hide and MS depite being very large.

My point is that I still have to deal with my Hide and MS abilities, and you dont seem to know it, but I DO have penalties, people CAN see me a lot easier, firstly I occupy a much larger space, so I can be seen easier (in terms of not being able to hide behind things easily) and you consume a bigger space IG so people are always nearer to you. Second, people can walk into you MUCH easier and have to try and walk around you, this sparked up issues many times, and this is also what the team touched on. Many of the things that you claim aren't pheasable due to things that may go wrong for the Dragon are already in place, not to mention it's hard as hell to actually move around and avoid people...

So what I am trying to say is that being a Dragon using stealth DOES have major disadvantages, and I RP extra ones, please don't tell me I can't do this at all...

I hope I've put together at least a slightly viable statement.

Enverex wrote:I hope I've put together at least a slightly viable statement.

The Team has given its ruling, repeatedly. Arguments to the contrary, viable or not, are at this point superfluous.

The NWN engine allows players to do some things with their characters that they should not be able to do. We sometimes make rulings or create guidelines to cover such things. This is an example of one such.

NH4 and nonscience were both very clear, as were CPU and Wombat.

- Aloro

and here is a tip for a dog spellcaster!
take the feat Still spell and Silent spell.

The only problem is that the engine don't stack metamagic feat yet....or so I think. But to have taken those feat and to cast your spell using at least one of those would be RP enough, I think, since it is harder to cast spells in animal form thus using a spell-slot one level higher (should be two level higher for the use of both but well...)

The same as you should be able to cast a spell with Still and Silent casting while held by a Bigby's Hand. though at the moment you can't do anything. Some NWN limitations that we have to cope with.