Now Discussion of "Test Avlis XP and Loot"

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yorlik
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Post by yorlik » Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:15 pm

After some testing and getting a bit of a feeling for the new system I have
some concerns, though basically I think it will be good:

Gaining XP is much easier, especially for lowbies, I like that.

But:
When the cap is done via XP, then we will have no more lowbies.
It will be easy to max out the 7k per week, or which is basically good, but
the consequence if someone maxes out consequently will be an extremely
fast levelling at the lower levels, and roughly a monthly levelling from
level 21 onwards.

Since its the levels and not the XP, which have IG consequences,
I'd suggest to put in an additional level cap of one level every two
or three weeks or so.

I know - the delay in levelling with higher levels is intentional, but the
table IMO show that something is out of proportion here.

I'd suggest to put in a level cap of one level every two weeks from level
1 to 21, and give a greater weekly XP cap at later levels, mybe 10.000 or
so (just an estimate - didn't calculate exactly here)

In the table I put in a line every ten levels to make that better viewable.

Code: Select all


Months      XP    Level     Graphical display of level
-------------------------------------------------------------------
 1      30.000     8        XXXXXXXX
-------------------------------------------------------------------
 2      60.000    11        XXXXXXXXXXX
 3      90.000    13        XXXXXXXXXXXXX
 4     120.000    16        XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
 5     150.000    17        XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
 6     180.000    19        XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
-------------------------------------------------------------------
 7     210.000    21        XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
 8     240.000    22        XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
 9     270.000    23        XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
10     300.000    25        XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
11     330.000    26        XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
12     360.000    27        XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
13     390.000    28        XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
14     420.000    29        XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
15     450.000    30        XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
-------------------------------------------------------------------
16     480.000    31        XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
17     510.000    32        XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
18     540.000    33        XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
19     570.000    34        XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
20     600.000    35        XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
21     630.000    36        XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
22     660.000    ""        XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
23     690.000    37        XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
24     720.000    38        XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
25     750.000    39        XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
26     780.000    40        XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
But I don’t want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can’t help that," said the Cat: "we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad."
― Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

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Post by yorlik » Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:24 pm

Just recalculated:

Setting the weekly cap related you the level one has would effectively lead to
a time based level cap:

Weekly Limit = (current level * 1000)/(wanted level cap weeks)
But I don’t want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can’t help that," said the Cat: "we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad."
― Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

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Post by Ensoleille » Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:50 pm

I fail to see how a time of just over 2 years is too long for someone to reach level 40.
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Post by yorlik » Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:55 pm

Ensoleille wrote:I fail to see how a time of just over 2 years is too long for someone to reach level 40.
The table reflects the current state: Plain static 7000 XP cap.
If the lower levels would get delayed, it would be longer, something
towards 20 months from level 21.

May main problem is not the high levels here - they still can level every
month or so, but the lower levels get b0rked. I just tried to squeeze it all into
a two year timeframe and still reasonable levelling frequencies.
But I don’t want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can’t help that," said the Cat: "we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad."
― Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

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Post by DanishPastry » Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:05 pm

Exactly how does the lower levels get borked?
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Post by yorlik » Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:11 pm

I just created an Excel sheet, to allow calculating the consequences
of various parameters on an XP system:

http://s16.quicksharing.com/v/1432899/X ... m.xls.html

You can enter a playtime per week considered sane and get as a result
the XP per hours you should be able to make according to the model.
There are two models provided:
A static one with a weekly XP cap, like the one tested right now,
and a dynamic one, where the weekly cap depends on your current level.
Within this model it is possible to add a "Delay Factor" which leads to
a delay of levelling at increasing higher levels, by subtracting a level
dependant amount of XP from the dynamic weekly cap. This will slow
down levelling at higher levels.
To see the result, theres a column which indicates how much time would
be needed to level if the dynamic Cap is hit.

You may call me maniac, but I think the XP system is a crucial part of
the rules implemented and has a great effect on the overall atmosphere.
But I don’t want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can’t help that," said the Cat: "we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad."
― Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

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Post by yorlik » Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:12 pm

DanishPastry wrote:Exactly how does the lower levels get borked?
I think the first 8 levels within a month is just too much.
But I don’t want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can’t help that," said the Cat: "we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad."
― Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

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Post by yorlik » Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:29 pm

But I don’t want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can’t help that," said the Cat: "we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad."
― Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

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Post by Pathos Street » Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:34 pm


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Post by Katroine » Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:37 pm

8 levels in a month is not bad. I take that long anyway, on all my alts, and I didn't die from the boredom of not being epic in a month.

You have time to meet people, see the game, learn stuff, and stop and smell the roses. I do not see one tiny thing wrong with taking one month to be 8th level. It is not a race to 40, it is a roleplay world rich in history and character. I don't care if someone's concept is to be the toughest killer of monsters, they still can get there and have time to see what goes on around them.
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Post by szabot » Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:46 pm

I think Yorlik is saying not that one month is too long for 8 levels, but rather too short.

But, Yorlik, someone will only reach 8 levels in one month if they hit the cap every week, but you can't expect that to happen. If it does, someone was probably playing a lot. If they were exploiting something, then hopefully the exploit gets found out. At least the cap keeps them from exploiting it to reach 20th in a month, or something like that. :P

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Post by yorlik » Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:49 pm

szabot wrote:I think Yorlik is saying not that one month is too long for 8 levels, but rather too short.

But, Yorlik, someone will only reach 8 levels in one month if they hit the cap every week, but you can't expect that to happen. If it does, someone was probably playing a lot. If they were exploiting something, then hopefully the exploit gets found out. At least the cap keeps them from exploiting it to reach 20th in a month, or something like that. :P
Exactly. I meant its too fast to get 8 levels in a month.
Thats where my plead for a modified system comes from.
But I don’t want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can’t help that," said the Cat: "we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad."
― Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

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Post by Katroine » Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:01 pm

What szabot said.

It is to keep the OMG-40-in-a-month! type players slowed down and the others can still gain at a reasonable pace.
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Post by Aeveras » Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:06 pm

I've noticed it become quite common for PCs to reach level 8 in two weeks, or even one week. If the cap means it will now take a month to reach level 8, then I think this is great. Sure, it's a speed pace, but if you go by strict CoPaP guidelines, this is sanctioned as per the idea that level 20 can be attainable in 6 months if you really can't wait any longer.

So what's the alternative if we want to still allow PCs to make it to level 20 in six months, but decide that you can't level more than once per week? Bad things, actually. At first the cap is set very low; 1000xp for week one, 2000xp for week two — this is restrictive. But what's actually worse is when you're into week 19, and your cap is now 19000xp. This is worse, because now your cap is huge, and if we want to encourage people that it's ok to reach level 20 in 6 months, that means we're encouraging you to powergame 19000xp in one week.

Yes, level 8 in one month is a lot, but 1). it slows down a lot after that, and 2). a character has to actually be able to hit cap every week, which is hard when you're a squishy lowbie.

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Post by Kerrick » Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:07 pm

For the most part Avlis has tightened rules, tightened quests, tightened loopholes over the years, I'd submit it's already harder to level up than you had it (for starters one can no longer elysia farm yourway to lvl 5), unless a newb has a veteran's body of knowledge of the most perfect routes and activities, and newb's simply don't.
Yes, it's so hard to level up that people are getting to L40 with their first PC in 14-15 months. :roll:

And just FYI, I'm the one who brought up the infamous monk (whose name I'm perfectly aware of) first, and it was six months, not a year.
When the cap is done via XP, then we will have no more lowbies. It will be easy to max out the 7k per week, or which is basically good, but the consequence if someone maxes out consequently will be an extremely fast levelling at the lower levels, and roughly a monthly levelling from level 21 onwards.
You know, for once I actually agree with Yorlik. If the lowbies make XP based on solo kills, they're going to level VERY fast, and towing will become a serious issue (even moreso than now). Partying up is great, I understand that, but there's got to be some happy medium between "epic kills all the XP" and "lowbies make shitloads of XP from getting towed".
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Post by VETT SCALES L7 » Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:18 pm

aquasoup wrote:So because one monk guy who's name you can't even really remember, who therefore sounds as if he had zero impact on the server's RP, managed to powergrind too fast, the xp curve of the entire server should be adjusted, now that you have safely reached 40?
Don't talk down to me here. If you want you can pm me and do it there. Don't assume or insinuate I'm being a shithead because I've 'safely reached 40' and now I spit all over the playerbase. I'm generally a fairly decent guy.
aquasoup wrote:I know I haven't earned the veteran status to offer criticism, but I've said the same thing with full confidance on servers where I do have that veteran elite vantage point in similar debates: just because I'm in a top position, it doesn't mean advocating clamping down on everyone below coming up is alright. It's far too human nature to assume your struggle to the top was titanic and their's was trivial, that self delusion is nearly always bollocks.
I am not advocating clamping down on everyone coming up. I am definitely saying changes would be good and I'm looking forward to seeing them.

Don't ever call my delusions bollocks again, savvy? You deal with your own delusions, I'll deal with mine thanks.

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Post by Pathos Street » Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:33 pm

Seems you have a virus, darth.

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Post by yorlik » Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:36 pm

Aeveras wrote:So what's the alternative if we want to still allow PCs to make it to level 20 in six months, but decide that you can't level more than once per week? Bad things, actually. At first the cap is set very low; 1000xp for week one, 2000xp for week two — this is restrictive. But what's actually worse is when you're into week 19, and your cap is now 19000xp. This is worse, because now your cap is huge, and if we want to encourage people that it's ok to reach level 20 in 6 months, that means we're encouraging you to powergame 19000xp in one week.
I didn't mean to make it 1000 XP per level. Just raise it with the levels,
but not that much, of course. The cap must for each level be within a
reasonable rangeto keep levelling at something between 1 and 4 weeks,
depending on the current level.

As for towing: If the weekly cap is set such, that lightning fast levelling is
no more a possible, this won't be a problem as well. Maybe it even would
be good: People would gain their XP fast, if they wish, but could still not
race away. And they would have plenty of spare time to RP and introduce
their new PC to the world it just was born into.
But I don’t want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can’t help that," said the Cat: "we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad."
― Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

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Post by DanishPastry » Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:54 pm

Edited for hawtness.
yorlik wrote:After some testing and getting a bit of a feeling for the new system I have
some concerns, though basically I think it will be good:

Gaining XP is much easier, especially for lowbies, I like that.

But:
When the cap is done via XP, then we will have no more lowbies.
It will be easy to max out the 7k per week, or which is basically good, but
the consequence if someone maxes out consequently will be an extremely
fast levelling at the lower levels, and roughly a monthly levelling from
level 21 onwards.

Since its the levels and not the XP, which have IG consequences,
I'd suggest to put in an additional level cap of one level every two
or three weeks or so.

I know - the delay in levelling with higher levels is intentional, but the
table IMO show that something is out of proportion here.

I'd suggest to put in a level cap of one level every two weeks from level
1 to 21, and give a greater weekly XP cap at later levels, mybe 10.000 or
so (just an estimate - didn't calculate exactly here)

In the table I put in a line every ten levels to make that better viewable.

Code: Select all

                       8888  8888888
                  888888888888888888888888
               8888:::8888888888888888888888888
             8888::::::8888888888888888888888888888
            88::::::::888:::8888888888888888888888888
          88888888::::8:::::::::::88888888888888888888
        888 8::888888::::::::::::::::::88888888888   888
           88::::88888888::::m::::::::::88888888888    8
         888888888888888888:M:::::::::::8888888888888
        88888888888888888888::::::::::::M88888888888888
        8888888888888888888888:::::::::M8888888888888888
         8888888888888888888888:::::::M888888888888888888
        8888888888888888::88888::::::M88888888888888888888
      88888888888888888:::88888:::::M888888888888888   8888
     88888888888888888:::88888::::M::;o*M*o;888888888    88
    88888888888888888:::8888:::::M:::::::::::88888888    8
   88888888888888888::::88::::::M:;:::::::::::888888888
  8888888888888888888:::8::::::M::aAa::::::::M8888888888       8
  88   8888888888::88::::8::::M:::::::::::::888888888888888 8888
 88  88888888888:::8:::::::::M::::::::::;::88:88888888888888888
 8  8888888888888:::::::::::M::"@@@@@@@"::::8w8888888888888888
  88888888888:888::::::::::M:::::"@a@":::::M8i888888888888888
 8888888888::::88:::::::::M88:::::::::::::M88z88888888888888888
8888888888:::::8:::::::::M88888:::::::::MM888!888888888888888888
888888888:::::8:::::::::M8888888MAmmmAMVMM888*88888888   88888888
888888 M:::::::::::::::M888888888:::::::MM88888888888888   8888888
8888   M::::::::::::::M88888888888::::::MM888888888888888    88888
 888   M:::::::::::::M8888888888888M:::::mM888888888888888    8888
  888  M::::::::::::M8888:888888888888::::m::Mm88888 888888   8888
   88  M::::::::::::8888:88888888888888888::::::Mm8   88888   888
   88  M::::::::::8888M::88888::888888888888:::::::Mm88888    88
   8   MM::::::::8888M:::8888:::::888888888888::::::::Mm8     4
       8M:::::::8888M:::::888:::::::88:::8888888::::::::Mm    2
      88MM:::::8888M:::::::88::::::::8:::::888888:::M:::::M
     8888M:::::888MM::::::::8:::::::::::M::::8888::::M::::M
    88888M:::::88:M::::::::::8:::::::::::M:::8888::::::M::M
   88 888MM:::888:M:::::::::::::::::::::::M:8888:::::::::M:
   8 88888M:::88::M:::::::::::::::::::::::MM:88::::::::::::M
     88888M:::88::M::::::::::*88*::::::::::M:88::::::::::::::M
    888888M:::88::M:::::::::88@@88:::::::::M::88::::::::::::::M
    888888MM::88::MM::::::::88@@88:::::::::M:::8::::::::::::::*8
    88888  M:::8::MM:::::::::*88*::::::::::M:::::::::::::::::88@@
    8888   MM::::::MM:::::::::::::::::::::MM:::::::::::::::::88@@
     888    M:::::::MM:::::::::::::::::::MM::M::::::::::::::::*8
     888    MM:::::::MMM::::::::::::::::MM:::MM:::::::::::::::M
      88     M::::::::MMMM:::::::::::MMMM:::::MM::::::::::::MM
      88    MM:::::::::MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM::::::::MMM::::::::MMM
        88    MM::::::::::::MMMMMMM::::::::::::::MMMMMMMMMM
         88   8MM::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::MMMMMM
          8   88MM::::::::::::::::::::::M:::M::::::::MM
              888MM::::::::::::::::::MM::::::MM::::::MM
             88888MM:::::::::::::::MMM:::::::mM:::::MM
             888888MM:::::::::::::MMM:::::::::MMM:::M
            88888888MM:::::::::::MMM:::::::::::MM:::M
           88 8888888M:::::::::MMM::::::::::::::M:::M
           8  888888 M:::::::MM:::::::::::::::::M:::M:
              888888 M::::::M:::::::::::::::::::M:::MM
             888888  M:::::M::::::::::::::::::::::::M:M
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Post by Levis Pie » Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:12 pm

:lol:
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Post by xarthna » Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:18 pm

I Love it Hawt!


Code: Select all

  ,o8o, ,o8o,
,888888,888888,
888888888888888
888888888888888
`8888888888888'
  `888888888'
    `88888'
      `8' 

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Post by chamalscuro » Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:27 pm

God, that brings back memories, when dot matrix printers were the shit, we'd be printing out these "pictures," burning up yards of tractor-feed printer paper... LOL

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Post by Gorgon » Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:28 pm

*looks real close to find when you hit 40 on the spiffy new chart*
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Post by Cushman » Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:06 pm

Marleh wrote:Look back at what is being offered. Young characters will be given the full xp for their kills even when partied with much higher characters. That is an amazing incentive for both young and old characters to be able to adventure together without worrying about words like "towing" being banded about.

~Secondary~ to this is an xp cap that is far above what is the average xp gain for most characters.

This secondary addition is far outweighed by the first,...
I completely agree with Marleh. I appear to be one of the very few players that might be affected by the cap and I'm all for it. I haven't checked on the test server, but it sounds like it'll help new players greatly and characters a LOT since they can now be protected by higher level characters and still gain xp.

I plan on tracking my xp day by day for a while to see exactly how and when I get xp. :) The last two days, for example, were pretty typical gathering/crafting days and I got perhaps 700-800 xp for it. An event last night garnered me 400 if I remember right. Like I said, I usually don't really pay too much attention but I'm now really interested in where I get xp. I know now and again I go on xp binges but most (80%-ish) of my time spent playing is very focused on particular Order-related activities. Being a paladin I honor my commitment to those I have promised to do something for, so I have a number of non-Order "quests" to PCs and NPCs as well that's probably 15% of the rest of my playing. I guess the other 5% is going on xp runs when I come across some particular sweetspot of an area. :) But, like I said, I'll be checking to see.

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Post by Cushman » Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:38 pm

DanishPastry wrote:Edited for hawtness.
Hahahahaha, too funny! :D

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